More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

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Expand view Topic review: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by PonchoRamane » Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:13 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 8:42 am
The thing about an amendment is that they do not pass easily. But also, the 2nd amendment does not need to be alltered if it was interpreted as the writers intended (which the current supreme court seems fond of, or at least claims to...)

If the phrase 'well regulated militia' was interpreted to require at a minimum some 6 months of gin club membership and training. Require registering safe storage of guns. Require regulations for when the guns can be signed out from the safe storage (is for official militia business). The landscape of gun ownership could be altered without needing to dramatically alter the gun culture.

Eg: if all gun owners now belong to a gun club, and the entire club risked losing their licenses if one of their registered guns is used in a crime, then they would self-enforce some responcible behaviour on their members.

Can still go do all the legal things people do with guns (historical re-enactment events, sporting shooting, official hunting activities) and keep guns in your home - if registered as a safe storage....

But i know this wouldn't be enough for some, i have Texan cousins, and have met at least one family friend who carried at all times (and nearly didn't come on holiday to Ireland because he wouldn't be allowed to bring a gun through the airport). Still sensible reform within the meaning of the 2nd amendment seems reasonable.
Informative post! Thanks for this.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by jampoodle » Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:32 am

is the goal to penalize everyone doing the right thing when one monster does the wrong thing? I'm supposed to be OK with paying 40B to arm Ukraine while surrendering my own arms

the argument is a backwards waste of time, there are over 400M firearms in the US and 399.999M are doing the right thing and the .001 that are not will do the wrong thing regardless of weapon

clown world

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by jampoodle » Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:25 am

yes, more laws will stop the criminals

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:14 pm

As you can probably begin to tell, I browse Youtube a lot...

This is a topical video pointing out the flaws of gun control studies, both for and against, that is rather interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgiQ-LmJGMY

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:38 am

orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:20 pm
worcej wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:18 pm
orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:50 pm


They nukes two cities. Those we're not military targets and thus are clear examples of war crimes.

Nobody held them to account (because they won) and this is just the most agregious example. But the justness of American violence is not in question, it is the glorification of that violence which is the problem here. The mimics who want to be glorified by dieing in violent terrorist shootouts rather than living mediocre lives.
The first part about the nukes is an interesting discussion by itself outside of this thread.

And yeah, no one held the US accountable for those deaths. Nor did anyone hold Stalin accountable for the massive amounts of genocide he performed. Nor did anyone hold the British Empire accountable for their atrocities over history...
Yep, i agree, other examples where a culture says it is great, and people who buy into that 'greatness' are more likely to justify whatever BS they are doing, are entirely as problematic (Not sure how easy it was for subjects of the Society Union to buy into, or if the general public had an idea about the mass murders... But definitely some would have bought the propoganda).

Fully happy to spend time criticising the Soviet Union and British Empire, but neither exist today... Yet some of their toxic bullshit remains in England and Russia - to varying degrees. None so vast as the degree i suspect the same affects the US.

As for the nukes, i spent a lot of time making apologies for them, defending the peace that has lasted to this day, with no nuclear weapons used since.But i think the blatant undeniable fact that by the rules for war crimes* which the US decided to apply to Germany post war, it is clearly the case that blowing up city is a war crime (not to mention the allied fire bombing of Dresden, though it amounts to the same...)

*The very idea of 'rules for war crimes' is ludicrous. If you have the power to set a bunch of rules and enfocre them fairly, then outlaw war, ban the sale and manufacture of the weapons of war, and take actions to enforce this. Pity the culture valourising warriors couldn't contemplate the moral position.
Replying to this to indicate I've read it, I agree with a lot of what you're saying here and really only brought up my examples to highlight that the victors of war set the rules.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:34 am

orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:28 pm
worcej wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:17 pm
Yeah, I believe a buyback is possible and some would do it, but an issue though is the government never pays market value for anything they take. Look at how they handle Eminent Domain for an example of unfair bullshit...
At least we are talking about potential practical solutions.

It doesn't matter if the buy back isn't perfect, if it will help.
Not everyone has to go in for it for there to he a positive result.

I read (probably on Twitter, so i can't back this figure up) that something like 1 in 30 Americans own most of the guns ~lets say 150 million guns. So the average looks fairly high, but those guns are concentrated in the hands of a fairly small population (and anecdotally i did meet one cowboy when i was in Texas who showed my his safe/gun collection).

Do you think this contributes somewhat to the issue?
Not really arguing against a buyback - I quite honestly don't know how it would go overall. My gut is you'd get regional participation and regional defiance.

Do I think 1 in 30 people control ~50% of the guns is an issue? Honestly, no - those people are not performing the mass shootings.

Or are you asking something else?

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by orathaic » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:28 pm

worcej wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:17 pm
Yeah, I believe a buyback is possible and some would do it, but an issue though is the government never pays market value for anything they take. Look at how they handle Eminent Domain for an example of unfair bullshit...
At least we are talking about potential practical solutions.

It doesn't matter if the buy back isn't perfect, if it will help.
Not everyone has to go in for it for there to he a positive result.

I read (probably on Twitter, so i can't back this figure up) that something like 1 in 30 Americans own most of the guns ~lets say 150 million guns. So the average looks fairly high, but those guns are concentrated in the hands of a fairly small population (and anecdotally i did meet one cowboy when i was in Texas who showed my his safe/gun collection).

Do you think this contributes somewhat to the issue?

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by orathaic » Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:20 pm

worcej wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:18 pm
orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:50 pm
The threat of American violence has been overwhelmingly a force for good over the last century, barring a few well publicised errors.
They nukes two cities. Those we're not military targets and thus are clear examples of war crimes.

Nobody held them to account (because they won) and this is just the most agregious example. But the justness of American violence is not in question, it is the glorification of that violence which is the problem here. The mimics who want to be glorified by dieing in violent terrorist shootouts rather than living mediocre lives.
The first part about the nukes is an interesting discussion by itself outside of this thread.

And yeah, no one held the US accountable for those deaths. Nor did anyone hold Stalin accountable for the massive amounts of genocide he performed. Nor did anyone hold the British Empire accountable for their atrocities over history...
Yep, i agree, other examples where a culture says it is great, and people who buy into that 'greatness' are more likely to justify whatever BS they are doing, are entirely as problematic (Not sure how easy it was for subjects of the Society Union to buy into, or if the general public had an idea about the mass murders... But definitely some would have bought the propoganda).

Fully happy to spend time criticising the Soviet Union and British Empire, but neither exist today... Yet some of their toxic bullshit remains in England and Russia - to varying degrees. None so vast as the degree i suspect the same affects the US.

As for the nukes, i spent a lot of time making apologies for them, defending the peace that has lasted to this day, with no nuclear weapons used since.But i think the blatant undeniable fact that by the rules for war crimes* which the US decided to apply to Germany post war, it is clearly the case that blowing up city is a war crime (not to mention the allied fire bombing of Dresden, though it amounts to the same...)

*The very idea of 'rules for war crimes' is ludicrous. If you have the power to set a bunch of rules and enfocre them fairly, then outlaw war, ban the sale and manufacture of the weapons of war, and take actions to enforce this. Pity the culture valourising warriors couldn't contemplate the moral position.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:20 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:23 pm
worcej wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:32 pm
An example of what federal laws should expand to in my opinion: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/politic ... index.html
That would certainly be a step in the right direction.
OMFG, Jamie finally decides to not troll and hate Americans!

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:18 pm

orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:50 pm
The threat of American violence has been overwhelmingly a force for good over the last century, barring a few well publicised errors.
They nukes two cities. Those we're not military targets and thus are clear examples of war crimes.

Nobody held them to account (because they won) and this is just the most agregious example. But the justness of American violence is not in question, it is the glorification of that violence which is the problem here. The mimics who want to be glorified by dieing in violent terrorist shootouts rather than living mediocre lives.
The first part about the nukes is an interesting discussion by itself outside of this thread.

And yeah, no one held the US accountable for those deaths. Nor did anyone hold Stalin accountable for the massive amounts of genocide he performed. Nor did anyone hold the British Empire accountable for their atrocities over history...

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:17 pm

orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:07 pm
To take a comparable US example, after slavery was abolished, compensation was paid to former slave owners for their loss of property. Right?

The point being, people may not like the change which is happening, but political power can bribe them...

(I looked it up, because i didn't remember the details

"the District of Columbia Emancipation Act paid those loyal to the Union up to $300 for every enslaved person freed." )
Yeah, I believe a buyback is possible and some would do it, but an issue though is the government never pays market value for anything they take. Look at how they handle Eminent Domain for an example of unfair bullshit...

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:14 pm

Randomizer wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:33 pm
https://www.yahoo.com/news/disturbing-p ... 06454.html

Rise of mass shootings by 17 to 22 year olds is blamed on lack of impulse control in changing brains, social media, lax gun laws for 18 year olds, and emulating other mass shooters.
Agree with all points you make here, though on a personal level I find it a US issue how inconsistent we are with how we treat 18 year olds - we punish them as adults, can force them into the military, and let them vote for politicians, but they cannot drink, smoke cigarettes, and some states don't let them own guns.

It should all be 21 or 18, not this mixture...

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by Jamiet99uk » Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:23 pm

worcej wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:32 pm
An example of what federal laws should expand to in my opinion: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/politic ... index.html
That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by orathaic » Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:50 pm

The threat of American violence has been overwhelmingly a force for good over the last century, barring a few well publicised errors.
They nukes two cities. Those we're not military targets and thus are clear examples of war crimes.

Nobody held them to account (because they won) and this is just the most agregious example. But the justness of American violence is not in question, it is the glorification of that violence which is the problem here. The mimics who want to be glorified by dieing in violent terrorist shootouts rather than living mediocre lives.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by orathaic » Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:07 pm

To take a comparable US example, after slavery was abolished, compensation was paid to former slave owners for their loss of property. Right?

The point being, people may not like the change which is happening, but political power can bribe them...

(I looked it up, because i didn't remember the details

"the District of Columbia Emancipation Act paid those loyal to the Union up to $300 for every enslaved person freed." )

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by orathaic » Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:58 pm

worcej wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:33 pm
[When you bring up Waco, you're referring to the Waco Siege or the recent shooting? I assume you mean the Siege - and I'd say that's the best example in present day
Yes, and i agree that it is a good example, and though i don't have sympathy for the particulars of the Cult, i do have sympathy for not being shot, attacked, burnt to death by law enforcement personnel. - though again, this doesn't happen in other countries, because not having fire arms everywhere means a 'seige' of this kind is fairly rare.
, but I would think we could agree that it is a poor example of what could happen if you step it up to the government going door to door collecting all firearms from the population. I'd expect you'd see a wide range of different siege-like events and a lack of total resources by the government to accomplish the task due to scale and the fact many agents tasked with conducting it wouldn't participate due to their own beliefs, but this is just speculation on my part
Yes, i agree, i don't think going door-to-door is likely. What happens in other places is a gun amnesty or buy back scheme.

Northern Ireland had paramilitaries put their weapons beyond use. Not by having a door-to-door campaign where the state officials (who had been target of many of those weapons) 'took our guns' - it was overseen by an independent expert (a Canadian General iirc)

Canada has announced a similar scheme to reduce firearms in recent days.

So, no, because it is the US and because of the gun culture, i don't think that fantasy Tyranical government coming to get you is likely.

Not on a large scale -whereas Waco Seige did involve some claims that illegal weapons partly justified the murder of several children by the state.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by Randomizer » Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:33 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/disturbing-p ... 06454.html

Rise of mass shootings by 17 to 22 year olds is blamed on lack of impulse control in changing brains, social media, lax gun laws for 18 year olds, and emulating other mass shooters.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by worcej » Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:32 pm

An example of what federal laws should expand to in my opinion: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/politic ... index.html

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by Octavious » Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:20 am

orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:58 am
The American Public at large, i mean aren't they the problem?
Absolutely. Eliminate the American public and there will no longer be a gun violence issue in America. The land will become a paradise of peace with zero cruelty, much like you get in places like Mars.
orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:58 am
How do Americans feel about violence? What if i said it is just like your founding fathers (except they won)? That the US military state has imposed violence on much of the world for at least a century, and this is bad actually.
I dare say that much of the population of Europe would disagree. The threat of American violence has been overwhelmingly a force for good over the last century, barring a few well publicised errors. I confess it's hard to deny that the efforts of the Nazis, Soviets, and cultural revolutionaries in the far east gifted an eternal peace to many millions of people (and would have extended it to many millions more given half a chance), but on the whole I have to say I have a strong preference for American violence.
orathaic wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:58 am

How do you think American public opinion would feel about my take on their history of violence?
One imagines the American public would feel that you were an ignorant foreign intellectual trying to impose your will on an issue that is none of your business and of which you have limited understanding. That's my guess, anyway.

Re: More American children murdered by gun-toting lunatic

by orathaic » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:58 am

The American Public at large, i mean aren't they the problem? Jamie is reducing the issue to a very simple dichotomy, guns or children's lives. But he's not entirely wrong.

That said, there is more that can be done to tackle white Supremacy, male entitlement, toxic masculinity and generation of violence.

How do Americans feel about violence? What if i said it is just like your founding fathers (except they won)? That the US military state has imposed violence on much of the world for at least a century, and this is bad actually.

How do you think American public opinion would feel about my take on their history of violence?

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