M80 Game Thread

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Expand view Topic review: M80 Game Thread

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Jamiet99uk » Fri May 26, 2023 9:17 am

Haze with a Z wrote: ↑
Fri May 26, 2023 2:44 am
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 4:34 pm
 You are the COMPULSIVE DESPERATE SURVIVALIST

During each DAY phase, you MUST fire a gunshot.

On odd-numbered days (D1, D3, etc), you must attempt to shoot [TOWN* / MAFIA*] (assuming any members of that faction remain alive).

On even-numbered days (D2, D4, etc), you must attempt to shoot [TOWN* / MAFIA*] (assuming any members of that faction remain alive).

If on any day you target a player from the wrong faction, you will die instead of them. If your target is protected / saved, but you targeted the right faction, this counts as a successful action for you and you will not die.

You win if you are the last player alive or nothing can stop this from happening.

*The even/odd targeting is randomly determined by the GM at the start of the game.
sounds hard. but also, what if all of the mafia/town are dead? do you auto die on that day?
No, but good clarification. Amended above.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Haze with a Z » Fri May 26, 2023 2:44 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 4:34 pm
 You are the COMPULSIVE DESPERATE SURVIVALIST

During each DAY phase, you MUST fire a gunshot.

On odd-numbered days (D1, D3, etc), you must attempt to shoot [TOWN* / MAFIA*].

On even-numbered days (D2, D4, etc), you must attempt to shoot [TOWN* / MAFIA*] .

If on any day you target a player from the wrong faction, you will die instead of them. If your target is protected / saved, but you targeted the right faction, this counts as a successful action for you and you will not die.

You win if you are the last player alive or nothing can stop this from happening.


*The even/odd targeting is randomly determined by the GM at the start of the game.
sounds hard. but also, what if all of the mafia/town are dead? do you auto die on that day?

Re: M80 Game Thread

by damo666 » Thu May 25, 2023 6:31 pm

Understood

Re: M80 Game Thread

by ghug » Thu May 25, 2023 5:55 pm

damo666 wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 9:22 am
ghug wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 8:25 am
damo666 wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 8:21 am
 Jamie's next post will discuss the games balance.
My two high level thoughts:
Town got really lucky with two investigations, but overall there was less investigative power than a single cop. I don't think that's a balance problem.
There may have been too much protective. N1 sounds like it was shitty for scum because town PRs played poorly and outed themselves, which is kinda shitty.
I don't see how you can say PRs played poorly given the ease of victory.
I'm just talking D1, when two of them were outed. Obviously the rest of the game was won mostly on PR actions. That situation would normally be a very good start for scum but it put them in a very bad position.

I don't really buy the too many townclears thing. The only townclears were PRs, who can pretty much always clear themselves, and two of them did so by claiming with no actions. That itself wouldn't have been a problem if there hadn't been so many town actions to second guess.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 25, 2023 4:34 pm

You are the COMPULSIVE DESPERATE SURVIVALIST

During each DAY phase, you MUST fire a gunshot.

On odd-numbered days (D1, D3, etc), you must attempt to shoot [TOWN* / MAFIA*].

On even-numbered days (D2, D4, etc), you must attempt to shoot [TOWN* / MAFIA*] .

If on any day you target a player from the wrong faction, you will die instead of them. If your target is protected / saved, but you targeted the right faction, this counts as a successful action for you and you will not die.

You win if you are the last player alive or nothing can stop this from happening.


*The even/odd targeting is randomly determined by the GM at the start of the game.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Chaqa » Thu May 25, 2023 4:11 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 3:27 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 3:20 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 2:40 pm

3P Desperado
A third-party Desperado.... who has to target scum?
(Isn't that just a Town Desperado? What would the 3P Desperado's win con be?)
Maybe he has to alternate

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 25, 2023 3:27 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 3:20 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 2:40 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 2:11 pm

I don't object to this one, but I advise doing some scenario planning around what happens if there is a mass-claim.
3P Desperado
A third-party Desperado.... who has to target scum?
(Isn't that just a Town Desperado? What would the 3P Desperado's win con be?)

Re: M80 Game Thread

by President Eden » Thu May 25, 2023 3:21 pm

Quartermaster is actually super powerful for a player who is able to make it to lategame without being the center of attention.

It was just doomed to be bad in my hands lol.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 25, 2023 3:20 pm

Chaqa wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 2:40 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 2:11 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 12:52 pm
- A full transition to JOAT madness (everyone is a 3x power JOAT, though 1 of these powers for everyone would likely be something very minor akin to a Fruit Vendor)
I don't object to this one, but I advise doing some scenario planning around what happens if there is a mass-claim.
3P Desperado
A third-party Desperado.... who has to target scum?

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Chaqa » Thu May 25, 2023 2:40 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 2:11 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 12:52 pm
- A full transition to JOAT madness (everyone is a 3x power JOAT, though 1 of these powers for everyone would likely be something very minor akin to a Fruit Vendor)
I don't object to this one, but I advise doing some scenario planning around what happens if there is a mass-claim.
3P Desperado

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 25, 2023 2:11 pm

Chaqa wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 12:52 pm
- A full transition to JOAT madness (everyone is a 3x power JOAT, though 1 of these powers for everyone would likely be something very minor akin to a Fruit Vendor)
I don't object to this one, but I advise doing some scenario planning around what happens if there is a mass-claim.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 25, 2023 12:54 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 12:10 pm
 Also a suicide bomber night action would have improved this problem if it was a day action instead.
Suicide bombers that can trigger during the day are more powerful, yes, because they can allow scum to cause a miskill as well as wiping out a target. Plus if the suicide bomber is caught out they can still inflict damage on their way out.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Chaqa » Thu May 25, 2023 12:52 pm

So overall, I think I echo Jamie's sentiments that the balance was probably somewhat town-sided. I do think that circumstances of the game led to town having an easier go of things, both with good action choices on their part as well as luck and some misplay on mafia's part.

I have a feeling if we played this again as is, town would do slightly worse but overall still okay. I had anticipated mafia using their abilities more strategically, but the early claims by worcej and Eden combined with Fox+Xcution being caught rather quickly led to a pretty rough game state for mafia.

Specific abilities/thoughts (mafia):
  • Jail vs. Roleblock - I think it would probably have been overkill to give mafia a factional roleblock as well, but perhaps having one instead of each player having a jail would have made sense, though I think this turned out to not be a major issue.
  • Strongman & Ninja - Likewise, I think these were fine, though I believe maybe spreading them out among two mafia members would have made sense, the idea I was going for was to theme roles together as best I could.
  • Suicide Bomb - this role was weak and was honestly the last one I threw in, when the 4th mafia was added iirc. It's not that fun and I think to make it work better I would either make it a 2-for-1 or let it be used in the day phase. Additionally, the bit in here about the suicide bomb being savable is hard to pull off when there's only the one heal effect, so that could be a thing to add as well.
  • Vote Remover - I think this one should maybe be a Vote Stealer.
Specific abilities/thoughts (town):
  • Look, town played really well and got lucky, so that's first.
  • I think the Watch power is more powerful than the Track power here, so if I were to remove or modify one it would be that. I might replace it with a role that tells you what actions took place on someone, but not who did them?
  • Commute being targetable - this was definitely non-standard, but my thinking was it was really cool. That said, having seen how it plays with mafia plans first hand, I think Jamie is probably correct that this was too powerful.
  • Quartermaster - just really bummed Eden didn't get to do anything with those roles, they were some of my favorites
M82 will likely be a modified version of this setup, hopefully better-balanced.

I'm considering the following ways to take it:
- A Revised setup as stated above
- A full transition to JOAT madness (everyone is a 3x power JOAT, though 1 of these powers for everyone would likely be something very minor akin to a Fruit Vendor)
- A full transition to Item madness, with each town having an item that can be passed around to represent the powers and the mafia being item hoarders or something.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by dargorygel » Thu May 25, 2023 12:23 pm

Bonatogether wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 12:09 am
 Imagine, if you will - darg tap dancing
Waking up... done taking out the dog and making espresso (3x).

And now... even if no one is still waiting (what a milkshake, chaqa!)

Dargo tap dances, balancing the cup in his left hand and trying not to pick his nose with his right.

He succeeds.

Good game, everyone! It was a blast to read.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by brainbomb » Thu May 25, 2023 12:10 pm

Also a suicide bomber night action would have improved this problem if it was a day action instead.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by brainbomb » Thu May 25, 2023 12:03 pm

my advice to town of next game is to not be cocky or rest on the laurels. expect a more brutal occasion

Re: M80 Game Thread

by brainbomb » Thu May 25, 2023 12:02 pm

It should never be good to have one PR outted on day one.

We had two outted on day 1.

under most circumstances town would really suffer for that.

town did have some superior play from some people who were not PR however.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by Jamiet99uk » Thu May 25, 2023 9:24 am

Agree with Damo.

Town PRs outing may not be the best strategy usually, but on this occasion it created a townclear core we had little chance of killing quickly enough.

Re: M80 Game Thread

by damo666 » Thu May 25, 2023 9:24 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 8:42 am
 FWIW the reason Worcej was not jailed N1 was because some members of the Mafia team were really, really worried about being Watched or Tracked, therefore there was a viewpoint that we shouldn't be using too many actions for risk of being caught.
Reasonable

Re: M80 Game Thread

by damo666 » Thu May 25, 2023 9:23 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu May 25, 2023 8:31 am
 Yes, I will discuss game balance, thank you Damo.

Obviously the Scum Team did badly here and we were hit hard by some well-directed Town PR actions early on with Fox and X getting caught.

I think this setup was somewhat town-sided because of the number of verifiable Night Actions available to town. Verifiable actions create Townclears. The way that several townclears were created quite early made things almost impossible for Mafia.

I also think that the Commute power being target-able is very non-standard and should not have been done that way. Bad judgement by the Council to allow that. Normally commute is self-targeting only. It's much more powerful if it can be used to make someone else un-targetable.

The flavour was fun and I offer my thanks to Chaqa for running this.
I think this is fair.

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