wD Mafia Master Post

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Expand view Topic review: wD Mafia Master Post

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 7:32 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:25 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:07 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:04 pm

How do you feel knowing this has always been how it is, and you were just blissfully unaware?

I don't think it's super common, but it's a tool in the GM's toolbox like any other.
I don't feel great about it. It makes me think back to some things that happened over and over again in games I recall playing here (e.g., Fluminator was always a PR, demonoverlord was always VT).

I am surprised that I seem to be the only person who thinks this is a problem.
This system im describing would be a way for the GM to avoid repetitive rands you described above : flum pr seven games in a row, durga vt seven games in a row. You could rand three options and choose one that doesnt have the same ppl always being pr
You are missing my point. I don't care if Fluminator is a PR every time if he is assigned those roles randomly. I do care if it isn't random. And I care if there is a game where you are the GM, and I can assume that someone who has been getting a same role a lot won't be that role in your game because you are trying to "avoid repetitive rands."

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 7:25 pm

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:07 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:04 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:59 pm
 I only think that the game would be better with more oversight now that I know the general sentiments on randomization that you stated and quoted.
How do you feel knowing this has always been how it is, and you were just blissfully unaware?

I don't think it's super common, but it's a tool in the GM's toolbox like any other.
I don't feel great about it. It makes me think back to some things that happened over and over again in games I recall playing here (e.g., Fluminator was always a PR, demonoverlord was always VT).

I am surprised that I seem to be the only person who thinks this is a problem.
This system im describing would be a way for the GM to avoid repetitive rands you described above : flum pr seven games in a row, durga vt seven games in a row. You could rand three options and choose one that doesnt have the same ppl always being pr

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Chaqa » Mon May 20, 2024 7:09 pm

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:07 pm
Chaqa wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:04 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:59 pm
 I only think that the game would be better with more oversight now that I know the general sentiments on randomization that you stated and quoted.
How do you feel knowing this has always been how it is, and you were just blissfully unaware?

I don't think it's super common, but it's a tool in the GM's toolbox like any other.
I don't feel great about it. It makes me think back to some things that happened over and over again in games I recall playing here (e.g., Fluminator was always a PR, demonoverlord was always VT).

I am surprised that I seem to be the only person who thinks this is a problem.
I think you are looking at the trees instead of the forest here. I am also curious to hear others' opinions on it. For me it is just a way to ensure a game doesn't turn into a dumpster fire immediately if we had for example a mafia team made up of all people who had never played before.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 7:07 pm

Chaqa wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 7:04 pm
Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:59 pm
 I only think that the game would be better with more oversight now that I know the general sentiments on randomization that you stated and quoted.
How do you feel knowing this has always been how it is, and you were just blissfully unaware?

I don't think it's super common, but it's a tool in the GM's toolbox like any other.
I don't feel great about it. It makes me think back to some things that happened over and over again in games I recall playing here (e.g., Fluminator was always a PR, demonoverlord was always VT).

I am surprised that I seem to be the only person who thinks this is a problem.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 7:05 pm

I'd be interested to hear other people weigh in on this. It kind of seems obvious to me that we don't want GMs assigning roles or influencing role assignment based on their ideas of fairness. I think that is inherently unfair, and it's just a different game than forum mafia. I don't want to have to think about whether a GM would put two particular people together in PR roles or scum roles, or whatever else. It's also not fair to players who would prefer to have a random chance of getting any particular role, rather than the role that a GM wants to give them.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Chaqa » Mon May 20, 2024 7:04 pm

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:59 pm
 I only think that the game would be better with more oversight now that I know the general sentiments on randomization that you stated and quoted.
How do you feel knowing this has always been how it is, and you were just blissfully unaware?

I don't think it's super common, but it's a tool in the GM's toolbox like any other.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Chaqa » Mon May 20, 2024 7:03 pm

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:56 pm
brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:53 pm
 the result is still random, im just allowed to see a spread of possibilites and choose one. I dont find that to be a flawed way to do things.
Truly, the fact that you think this is not flawed (i.e., randing three times and picking your favorite) is a big concern.

I believe that the whole point of the game is trying to sort alignments that were distributed randomly. I don't want to play: "would brainbomb like this alignment distribution if it were one of his three options?"
Frankly this has never been a problem until now, but I suspect that this is one of those "we don't talk about Bruno" situations where it's common but unspoken. Someone already mentioned the time Captainmeme handpicked roles.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Chaqa » Mon May 20, 2024 7:02 pm

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:28 pm
 Just a quick rule clarification coming out of a post-game discussion from M88:

I think it is important that role assignment be 100% random. There should be zero room for any GM to have any input at all, including re-randomizing roles after they've been randomized once.

Curious to know if there are any alternative views on this point.
Brain has already posted my views on this. I don't believe GMs should be handpicking who plays what, but I view it as part of the job of the GM to ensure a game will be fun, and that may be include re-rolling if the assignments look like they will lead to an un-fun or combative environment.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 6:59 pm

Balki Bartokomous wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:56 pm
brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:53 pm
 the result is still random, im just allowed to see a spread of possibilites and choose one. I dont find that to be a flawed way to do things.
Truly, the fact that you think this is not flawed (i.e., randing three times and picking your favorite) is a big concern.

I believe that the whole point of the game is trying to sort alignments that were distributed randomly. I don't want to play: "would brainbomb like this alignment distribution if it were one of his three options?"
This would be problematic if I explained the rationale of which of the three I am choosing. I did not explain any rationale. I did not say id choose the one that gives the best game. I did not say id choose one that picks the players I most want to see end up as some role. I simply said I choose one of the three. And there is probably not a person alive who would just accurately guess what I chose or why, because very little thought if any actually goes into any of it. It all is done to the service of the fairest possible option. which is subjective and inexplicable.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 6:59 pm

I only think that the game would be better with more oversight now that I know the general sentiments on randomization that you stated and quoted.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 6:57 pm

A Mafia game is a production event. There is a cast of characters, a plot, an engine and all things therein run through its director whose first duty is to provide a fun, fair, and high quality game.

I dont think we need more micromanagement into the GMs on this forum. but we have a kouncil who can do those things if people think thats important.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 6:56 pm

brainbomb wrote: ↑
Mon May 20, 2024 6:53 pm
 the result is still random, im just allowed to see a spread of possibilites and choose one. I dont find that to be a flawed way to do things.
Truly, the fact that you think this is not flawed (i.e., randing three times and picking your favorite) is a big concern.

I believe that the whole point of the game is trying to sort alignments that were distributed randomly. I don't want to play: "would brainbomb like this alignment distribution if it were one of his three options?"

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 6:53 pm

the result is still random, im just allowed to see a spread of possibilites and choose one. I dont find that to be a flawed way to do things.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 6:52 pm

I can tell you from past experiences that I have been in games where I suspected I was not randomly assigned what I ended up with. But I also didnt care, and its quite the accusation to just claim the GM rigged the game right? I dont have any actual proof it happened.

From the other side of the hat, as a GM, I already have stated I always produce three possible rands, and then either choose one of the three or rand which of the three I take.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 6:48 pm

I don't think that any part of the game should be "Would this GM allow this to be the role distribution?" And if it's okay for GMs to influence role assignments, then that's part of the game here.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 6:46 pm

It does seem like an issue to me. And the fact that there are so many GMs who have said that they think it's okay to influence role assignments based on GM preference suggests to me that we should have a strict rule against it.

And to me it seems easy to "police," and not impossible.If GMs will not agree that all role assignment should be 100% random, then have a council member or anyone else who will buy into the rule do role assignments, or they should be assigned using an app or website live where someone can oversee it.

Honestly, I'm surprised to see that other people are fine with having role assignment be non-random.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 6:43 pm

Proposal 11:
All setups must be randomized by a kouncil member to avoid GM involvement in the setups distribution and rng. That kouncil member must not be a player or co gm, or gm in the game, and will not be a sub either.


(if you feel inclined to enforce this standard here is a proposal)

Officially, I would vote nay on this.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 6:39 pm

As was stated in discord, I think the following opinions reflect responsible GMing standards that are intended to provide the least amount of handpicking or tampering.
I support where a GM gets either 1-2 adjustments, or up to 3 rng rolls
-brainbomb
I will admit i have fully rerolled setups in very rare cases if I find it would be detrimental to a solid game. But I think randomness in role assignment is a cornerstone in mafia and if it isn't officially a rule it should probably be
for example when all mafia and PRs are very new players
-Chaqa
It's going to be a bit of a trade secret for each person
-Chaqa
I've re-rolled when 3/4 members of a scum team were all new players because I didn't think the game quality would be good. Otherwise I stick to my dice rolls
-Worcej

I would never reroll
I think the GM is providing the game. The scum provide the hunt. And rerolling adds a mess of a guess
-Bunnygo
I don't, but if I did, I'd lie about it. Lol
-Eden
Officially, you shouldn't be rerolling if you see something wrong and the assumption is that most GMs aren't, but obviously nobody knows what you're doing, so just keep it that way
What we don't want is a situation where someone can say "well, ghug is GM, so I know that the whole scumteam isn't new/inactive/his lovers/whatever"
- ghug


I think the consensus is, its impossible to police this because the GM can just claim everything is random. I think there is a justifiable methodology not in rerolling but in giving yourself up to three roles, then rnging which one of those three occurs. or allowing a GM to make an adjustment where they see fit for either what roles ended up in the setup or for which players end up as which. But it is just unspoken and never revealed if this happened or not.

Overall, this is a non issue until someone thinks this was an issue. And there is again never going to be a way to verify someone did something unethical.

the only way to enforce this would be that a kouncil member must always be the one to randomize the setup for the GM and take the GM entirely out of it. Then you would need a kouncil member to oversee the kouncil member who rolls it to ensure they also didnt alter anything.

Seems unecessary right? just set a standard of dont ask dont tell

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by Balki Bartokomous » Mon May 20, 2024 6:28 pm

Just a quick rule clarification coming out of a post-game discussion from M88:

I think it is important that role assignment be 100% random. There should be zero room for any GM to have any input at all, including re-randomizing roles after they've been randomized once.

Curious to know if there are any alternative views on this point.

Re: wD Mafia Master Post

by brainbomb » Mon May 20, 2024 4:28 pm

Who is hungry for more?

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