Proof I'm a Baboon by misspelling

It's interesting to compare how much effort we put into our training for our working career vis a vis how inadequately we prepare ourselves for parenting.
My crude tools included theatrical antics in teaching basic maths at kindergarten/early primary skool age. Posing questions like 'Quick, what's six times seven? Thirty nine or Forty three? You'll never get it!(mock challenge).. then once the correct answer.had been agreed upon, immediately scale it up, "Well.whats six times seven hundred thousand? " & I'd prance about like a clown, and put on a display of shock when child deduced correct answer, & scale.it up again. "What's sixty times.seven.million?
Make it fun was my tactic.. I used things like a version of part of Macbeth to teach very young children to write. The witches recipe.
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.. Cool it with a Babboons blood, then the charm is firm and good, etc
Her Serene Loving Imperiousness Indoors & myself presented two children to primary skool who could sing or quote snippets of Shakespeare, copy them.out clumsily with pencil on paper & excellent for age maths.abilities. On Randolph's fourth birthday there was the ceremony of glueing to his bedroom wall.a poster of the Periodic table.of Elements as one part of festivities. The big present that birthday was a baby Crow fledgling that he had to hand feed and care for 24/7. His mother had kniited him a new jumper with a pouch for the fledgling crow, so they were inseparable, boy, jumper and crow & the poster of Elements received much less attention.

Gosh Flash, where do I start in response?

Yes, it's illogical imho to raise children to believe that they can "flout the rules" and there will be no negative consequences.
One of the punishments used in Australian criminal courts considered to be better than imposing fines or imprisonment for lower level criminal offences is a combination of community service work & good behaviour bonds..eg a twelve month good behaviour bond.
So I often see suoervised gangs of persons in orange hi vis kit picking up rubbish etc beside.highways etc.
Isn't that a modern variation on 1950s-60s experienced and excellent teacher Mr Dansie's "Emu Parade punishments"?. .his alternative to the application of Percy Persuader which in those times was allowed.
I had male classmates who I know would have much preferred "one of the best" from Percy Persuader than a half hour or hour of Emu Parade.

Isn't it illogical to insist that a professional teacher should endure offensive behaviour etc, from students and assert that putting the (often recidivists because of a lack of negative consequences) in orange overalls, giving them the gloves, tongs & bag & making them do a bit of useful work under supervision is some form of child abuse?

The decline of rigorous standards in education and training?
Private sector training providers who churn out newly minted certificate holders, where the pass/fail ratio is 98%/2% (the person who didn't turn up for class fails).. I've done industry courses and there's always three or four in fifteen students who, after much coaching "qualify" and I've known that's ethically questionable to put it lightly.imho.

Ogion wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:06 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 6:38 pm

Growing up my bottom would get wailed on whenever I made a scene but looking back, I wonder if that technically counts as abuse? I turned out okay so maybe it worked (It didn't even really hurt, I just pretended it did so they wouldn't spank as long) But maybe I should be angry about this in hindsight?

Do parents here spank their children?

not technically. It is. Generally, negative aversive training doesn't do any good except to inflict trauma. There's a mountain of behavioral research demonstrating tht it largely doesn't work and has all kinds of negative consequences.

Actually, the same is true in dog training, and shock collars and prong collars are also pretty much inthe abuse cateogry.

What does work is positive reinforcement. It's how you train dogs. It's how you train lions. It's also how you train humans.

You are presenting a false dichotomy here - positive reinforcement or "the beatings will continue until morale improves". The issue is far more nuanced than this.

My wife teaches in a NYC school. Kids can curse at her with impunity (some of the things the kids say are truly horrible and disgusting). The idea of "positive reinforcement only" mean that there is no punishment allowed for this behaviour (the principal told her "this is part of their culture so this is OK"). This is nuts. If we let them get away with it now, what happens in a few years when they interact with a cop in the streets...and do the same?

If my wife tries to fail a child because they do no work she pretty much has to put her job on the line to do it. She has learnt pretty quickly that you should pass everyone no matter what. Again, the kids are learning there are no consequences for not making an effort. How does that help the kids when they enroll in post-secondary education or try to get a job?

That's a fair comment Jamiet99uk. I should not be complimented for my failures, nor should I be condemned imho for them. There's a risk that parents today who never experienced "old style physical punishments" might think that they work well. I wanted to caution against that assumption.
What worked best was patience and talking, encouragement to "do the right thing, make the right choices" and when unavoidable & necessary, then intelligent punishment that were proportionate.
To not mention my greatest failure would be a sanitised & censored account.

Ogion wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:09 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri May 29, 2020 4:46 pm

The book "The Coddling of the American Mind" is a book I recommend. You can definitely witness the damage done as more and more Millenials go out to the workforce and are entitled whiny losers. (#notallMillenials)

I wonder if they were spanked growing up?

Kind of hard to get past their coddling of racist and other people who do damage to others. Some people need to be shouted down. Period. These guys are pretty damned clueless, frankly. It's not about being coddled, it's about not putting up with bullshit and allowing the paradox of tolerance to take hold.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Could you elaborate on this point?

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Fri May 29, 2020 4:46 pm

The book "The Coddling of the American Mind" is a book I recommend. You can definitely witness the damage done as more and more Millenials go out to the workforce and are entitled whiny losers. (#notallMillenials)

I wonder if they were spanked growing up?

Kind of hard to get past their coddling of racist and other people who do damage to others. Some people need to be shouted down. Period. These guys are pretty damned clueless, frankly. It's not about being coddled, it's about not putting up with bullshit and allowing the paradox of tolerance to take hold.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 6:38 pm

Growing up my bottom would get wailed on whenever I made a scene but looking back, I wonder if that technically counts as abuse? I turned out okay so maybe it worked (It didn't even really hurt, I just pretended it did so they wouldn't spank as long) But maybe I should be angry about this in hindsight?

Do parents here spank their children?

not technically. It is. Generally, negative aversive training doesn't do any good except to inflict trauma. There's a mountain of behavioral research demonstrating tht it largely doesn't work and has all kinds of negative consequences.

Actually, the same is true in dog training, and shock collars and prong collars are also pretty much inthe abuse cateogry.

What does work is positive reinforcement. It's how you train dogs. It's how you train lions. It's also how you train humans.

Sorry, that made no sense. For some reason I thought MM was the OP, not Flum.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 7:39 pm

I appreciate your bravery to talk about your personal needs in an open setting. Sometimes people are shy to admit stuff like that.

I assume this comment was directed to Chaqa, rather than MM.

My view is that corporal punishments are a "last resort" option in raising children and should be avoided whenever possible. I imitated my primary skool teacher Mr Dansie when my turn as an adult came.
Mr Dansie made his cane Percy Persuader a mythical character. Percy Persuader "lived in his cupboard" & Mr Dansie would use fear of Percy Persuader to get better behaviour. Mr Dansie would have "conversations about and with Percy Persuader" to achieve his goal.
Initial remarks .. then a walk over to Percy's cupboard and the ceremony of opening it's door "So Percy Persuader could see who was misbehaving" . Mr Dansie made it amusing as well as slightly terrifying. For example, after opening the cupboard door he would inform Percy Persuader that Jenny, Sally, Andrew and Roger had been well behaved, but Janet and Helen were being far too talkative.. Willy and John were being unruly so Percy Persuader should watch them most attentively...
We learnt that provided we behaved we were safe from Percy Persuader and Emu Parade. Misbehaving led to Emu Parade punishments.
Most days the furthest Mr Dansie would go with Percy Persuader would be "giving Percy Persuader a warm up, a bit of exercise to get Percy Persuader ready for use" that is, a ceremonial taking Percy Persuader out & sweeping the cane through the air for all of us to see.

Fortunately in my adult life the family disciplinarian has been my Adorable Fire Breathing Mem Sahib Her Serene & Lovely Imperiousness Indoors lounging on a sofa knitting her new "Rainbow Gollywogs".
So I got the role of a quasi Appeals Court. Many a time I would return to be greeted by young Randolph Sebastian and his younger sister professing love and their eager hopes that I would not.. send them to bed without desert or playtime.. would not spank them with wooden spoon as their mother had said she would tell me they deserved it for...choose any one of numerous offences.
I'd bundle them up in my arms and listen to their chatter, tell them I would talk to their mother and advise them that I needed them to be on their best behaviour from now until bedtime .
I'm not going to reveal the cunning ways I would mollify my Adorable Fire Breathing Mem Sahib
We used deprivation of priveliges, no desert at dinner time, straight of to bathroom then bedtime and then I had to visit each child in bedroom armed with wooden spoon and have conversations about their sins & go through the confession, expression of regrets, discussion of penance process and then I'd arrange the token spank... where I'd hit my own hand with wooden spoon and child would howl. I learnt that the more I inflicted pain on myself the more penitent became observing child.
Once the unpleasant business was done then (when they were young) I'd make up bedtime stories about Mr Pompy who lived in an old boot in the garden, or other fictions.
Naturally my Adorable Fire Breathing Mem Sahib quickly discovered my ruse with wooden spoon because my supporting actors would do a poorly timed fake howl then giggle. Loyal woman that she is, she didn't undermine my farcical authority within the domestic environment, so she didn't let Randolph Sebastian and his younger sister know​ that their mother knew about the wooden spoon deception until they were young adults.

I did cane Randolph Sebastian once after he hurt a horse by throwing stones at it when he was angry and wild and thirteen years old. Deprivation of horse riding backfiring. I made the young scallywag observe the vetinarian attend to the injured horse, and with hindsight realise that I should have waited a day or two to calm down.
But I was beyond furious, I was tightly held incandescent rage. The unfortunate child bravely presented his rear vestibule & I gave it a rather severe blow with riding crop that produced a frightful howl and flood of sons & tears. My Adorable Fire Breathing Mem Sahib had ice on the wound within a minute.
I was then angry with myself, confused and after a (calm for the circumstances) conversation with Her Serene Imperiousness Indoors, I left the domestic residence for about two weeks.
After I returned I took Randolph Sebastian for a game of golf on a skool day, and we had some profoundly rewarding conversations. Young Randolph Sebastian became a much better, kinder chap with horses and thankfully despite his escapades and dalliances since his thirteenth year he hasn't caused me to lose my temper to such a degree.

The book "The Coddling of the American Mind" is a book I recommend. You can definitely witness the damage done as more and more Millenials go out to the workforce and are entitled whiny losers. (#notallMillenials)

I wonder if they were spanked growing up?

I think it has gone too much the other way now. My wife's a school teacher and the principal told her that telling a student that they are going to fail was corporal punishment (i.e. equivalent to spanking, the cane). At some point children need to understand that there are consequences for bad actions. You do them a disservice if you wrap them in cotton wool until they are legal adults.

That dodgy English teacher never realised what was going on, afters few weeks at the start of the year I would deliberately get kicked out & sent to Wally D's Office. By second term if he wasn't in his office I'd just skip off to the library for that lesson.

I had a hilarious caning in my first high skool. I'd dodged several Cannings because the deputy headmaster that (I say as opinion) terrible English teacher who sent me to his office for canings was a dud teacher, he knew it & he knew that I knew he knew that she was a dud. He knew I was a top 15% performer at maths etc etc. So he'd never cane me but get me to quote a bit of Shakespeare & send me to the library.
In my second year at that flyblown establishment this (again my opinion) hopelessly mysoginistic fat & unfit history teacher took it upon himself to march a comrade and myself to Wally D's (Deputy Headmaster) Office and Wally D was out, so this history teacher takes it upon himself to cane the pair of us, six if his best to each of our rear vestibules.
I was wearing a blue skool blazer and had two novels in it's side pockets & when I bent over the pocket on left hand side was in the path of the cane the way this blighter applied it.. so it barely hurt.
I realised my good fortune and with subtle manouvre rendered the experience virtually painless, it was difficult to not laugh.
My comrade wasn't so lucky which served him out justly imho for not compulsively reading whilst at skool.

Spanking is a completely acceptable form of punishment, and in my opinion, sometimes the only acceptable form of punishment. That being said, it should only be employed after numerous threats and other options have been exhausted.

But yeah, don’t beat your kid like you’d fight a guy. That’s abuse.

Inflicting pain in controlled ways to get compliance is one strategy, others are far better, but our collective path to enlightenment is long and arduous & regrettably there are occasions in which considered proportionate use of force that inevitably causes pain is the least worse choice because better options are not practicably possible on those occasions.

As an old fuddy fuddy I grew up when students above ten could be caned, but when in upper grades of primary skool Mr Dansie only had to verbally refer to "Percy Persuader" to achieve a significant improvement in our behaviour. Cunning old Mr Dansie used fear of Percy Persuader more than actual application (very rare) For severe punishments he used "Emu Parade" punishments.. recess and lunch times in unhappy duties picking up litter around skool yard being taunted discreetly by students. Too loud a barb risked being included in the Emu Parade by Mr Dansie.

Fluminator wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 6:38 pm

Growing up my bottom would get wailed on whenever I made a scene
...
I turned out okay
...

That's your opinion.

I have to say that I didn't mean spanking in face. Personally I haven't experienced this and this is indeed traumatic for the little children. I meant spanking the parts that don't hurt at all :)

The problem with this is that

1) Children are incredibly resilient and can endure just about everything from outright war to intensive loss, trauma, and still grow up to be fine adults

and

2) Spanking encompasses everything from the equivalent of a light high-five on the thigh to extensive flogging with a belt or switch or other type of object.

Fundamentally, it operates on the same idea that you can kick your small puppy if it's not behaving properly. Sure, you can get obedience and the correct behavior you want eventually, but it's out of a place of fear. Not to mention, the effect on child development tends to be more negative than not in aggregate. Won't even bother with the sociological aspect lol

So no, it's simply not effective in the ways one would want it to be. There's plenty of more constructive methods for behavioral modification.