Twenty questions, round 502

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Expand view Topic review: Twenty questions, round 502

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Hominidae » Sat Mar 29, 2025 5:34 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 29, 2025 5:10 pm
Hominidae wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:55 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:27 pm
 I'm not misunderstanding the rules. It appears that a convention has arisen among some QMs, whereby the QM will refuse to answer the 20th question until a selection of regular participants gets their free guess in.

I do not think this should be the case; I think the QM is obliged to answer valid questions.
I'm still not sure what your complaint is with this convention. If you understood the rules, why didn't you make your free guess when you had the opportunity?
I had already made a free guess.
Ah, I missed that. Sorry for insinuating that you didn't understand the rules.

Still, I think it's overall better for gameplay if QMs pause to allow free guesses after Question 19. If you use your free guess early, you're taking a risk and the consequence may be not being able to make a free guess later, and someone else might get there first.

And I don't think it's just to allow regulars, or the QM's buddies, to make free guesses--it's to allow time for multiple people to make free guesses. It doesn't need to be 24 hours or anything, because this game isn't that serious, but it's helpful if it's enough time that most people get a chance if they can think of someone.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Jamiet99uk » Sat Mar 29, 2025 5:10 pm

Hominidae wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:55 pm
Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:27 pm
 I'm not misunderstanding the rules. It appears that a convention has arisen among some QMs, whereby the QM will refuse to answer the 20th question until a selection of regular participants gets their free guess in.

I do not think this should be the case; I think the QM is obliged to answer valid questions.
I'm still not sure what your complaint is with this convention. If you understood the rules, why didn't you make your free guess when you had the opportunity?
I had already made a free guess.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Hominidae » Sat Mar 29, 2025 3:05 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 2:44 pm
 I know who I want to guess, if the answer to my Q20 is "yes".
At this point, 19 questions had been answered and no one had correctly guessed the answer yet. There would have been literally no downside to Jamie guessing Henry at this point, regardless of whether the guess ended up being right or wrong.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Hominidae » Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:55 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:27 pm
 I'm not misunderstanding the rules. It appears that a convention has arisen among some QMs, whereby the QM will refuse to answer the 20th question until a selection of regular participants gets their free guess in.

I do not think this should be the case; I think the QM is obliged to answer valid questions.
I'm still not sure what your complaint is with this convention. If you understood the rules, why didn't you make your free guess when you had the opportunity?

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by JECE » Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:36 pm

Hominidae:

I think that Jamiet99uk understands the rules.

Another good point about why to ban conditional guesses!

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Jamiet99uk » Sat Mar 29, 2025 2:27 pm

I'm not misunderstanding the rules. It appears that a convention has arisen among some QMs, whereby the QM will refuse to answer the 20th question until a selection of regular participants gets their free guess in.

I do not think this should be the case; I think the QM is obliged to answer valid questions.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Hominidae » Sat Mar 29, 2025 12:09 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 10:08 pm
 On what basis does the QM have the discretion to refuse to answer a TOTALLY VALID question just because they want to give their mates more time to try to win?
I think you're misunderstanding the rules a bit here. Free guesses are only allowed up until the 20th question is answered. After the 20th question is answered, no one gets any more free guesses, but the group as a whole gets five guesses, regardless of whether they've used up their free guesses or not. So if the first 19 questions have already been answered but the 20th has not, you have literally nothing to lose by making a free guess, as long as your guess fits all the existing questions. If you had guessed Henry and then QM had come in and said "no" to Henry and "no" to your question, that's fine, you still would have had a chance to make one of the five additional guesses.

It's been standard for a while for QMs to pause after 19 questions for this reason.
Aristocrat wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 11:17 pm
 I don't think there has been a QM win in 300+ rounds, not because people are so good at guessing, but mostly because QMs do this and that (wait for free guesses, offer additional questions, provide clues, etc.) to help the guessers and keep the QM seat rotating. This also has a bonus of allowing for a greater number of possible picks, because some of the more obscure or clever picks sometimes need a little extra. Sometimes those bonus pushes come at the (unintentional) expense of some players. I have made the point before of asking whether a clue is incoming, since there was a period of time where I seemed to miss answers with a bad guess only for QMs to come in and give a big boost with a clue right after. I don't think that is malicious, but it can be annoying to the player it seems to harm.
The reason I don't ever want to "win" as a QM is that it would imply that my pick was too obscure, or too random, in the first place. If I chose some random low-level Hungarian politician from the 1890s and no one guessed it, it feels wrong to call that a "win" for me. If this was an actual competitive game where QMs were trying to "win", it would be 500+ rounds of MSmart choosing random names out of a phone book. However, the possibility of a QM win should probably exist for the game to be fun.

Hints and bonuses definitely need to be given out sparingly though--ideally not at all, although there are exceptional circumstances. Based on arguments you've made, I've arrived at the belief that the end-of-game type hints should only be given out after Question 20, so that people don't wait for them in order to make free guesses (which I don't think anyone was ever doing, but I get the concern there).
Aristocrat wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 11:17 pm
 Second, my recollection is that conditional guesses were disallowed because people - generally the same people with a ton of wins - got very good at asking pinpoint questions that could only lead to one realistic answer, so it ended up being a way to snipe answers very early in the rounds and box out newer players (e.g., does this person have [XYZ] award during [this time period]? If yes, [conditional guess], where only [conditional guess] could be the answer). Conditional questions are a little different since the benefit doesn't just accrue to the player asking it.
My issue with conditional guesses is that you can use them to make a free guess without actually using up your free guess. The nice thing about the free guess system is if a player makes a free guess early on and it's wrong, they're effectively out of the game unless they make an unfree guess or it goes to 20 questions, so other players have more of a chance, but with conditional guesses, that effect is reduced. When conditional guesses were allowed, the QM spot mostly rotated between the same 4 or 5 people, even more so than it does now.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by DreamTrawler » Fri Mar 28, 2025 3:36 pm

yavuzovic wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:13 pm
 There might be something detrimental with this, I'm not sure if there was a reason for making this rule in the first place but instead we can allow free guesses to be placed separately from the 5 guesses even after the 20th question so QM doesn't have to give discretionary extra time while nobody loses their free guesses.
I could see that, I suppose. In the end most games usually don't even go to the final 5 questions.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by damo666 » Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:23 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 11:42 am
 For (iii) did you mean to say conditional questions, Damo?
yeah, sorry

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by yavuzovic » Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:13 pm

There might be something detrimental with this, I'm not sure if there was a reason for making this rule in the first place but instead we can allow free guesses to be placed separately from the 5 guesses even after the 20th question so QM doesn't have to give discretionary extra time while nobody loses their free guesses.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by yavuzovic » Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:09 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:08 pm
yavuzovic wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 11:43 am
 I think it is fair for QM to give extra time, because otherwise the 20th question can be sabotaged to deny others of their free guesses. Before the 20th question is asked, everyone is equally given 1 free guess and if they know the answer before others, it is impossible to be unfairly judged. Delaying to answer the 20th question only gives players time to catch up, not an extra guess. Most players like to keep their guess until more information is revealed so I'm in support of the current way.
That would be changing the format of the game into a game with three distinct phases:

1. Nineteen questions;
2. Free guessing phase;
3. Final question and five total guesses allowed.
You can still guess earlier if you don't want to lose to someone faster.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Jamiet99uk » Fri Mar 28, 2025 12:08 pm

yavuzovic wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 11:43 am
 I think it is fair for QM to give extra time, because otherwise the 20th question can be sabotaged to deny others of their free guesses. Before the 20th question is asked, everyone is equally given 1 free guess and if they know the answer before others, it is impossible to be unfairly judged. Delaying to answer the 20th question only gives players time to catch up, not an extra guess. Most players like to keep their guess until more information is revealed so I'm in support of the current way.
That would be changing the format of the game into a game with three distinct phases:

1. Nineteen questions;
2. Free guessing phase;
3. Final question and five total guesses allowed.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by yavuzovic » Fri Mar 28, 2025 11:43 am

I think it is fair for QM to give extra time, because otherwise the 20th question can be sabotaged to deny others of their free guesses. Before the 20th question is asked, everyone is equally given 1 free guess and if they know the answer before others, it is impossible to be unfairly judged. Delaying to answer the 20th question only gives players time to catch up, not an extra guess. Most players like to keep their guess until more information is revealed so I'm in support of the current way.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Jamiet99uk » Fri Mar 28, 2025 11:42 am

For (iii) did you mean to say conditional questions, Damo?

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by damo666 » Fri Mar 28, 2025 11:30 am

My opinions.

i) Any question must be answered irrespective of its number unless rendered redundant by previous answers.

ii) conditional guesses should not be allowed.

iii) conditional guesses should be allowed, I reintroduced it a while back. My reasoning is you don't want to ask a question that is made redundant by an a future answer to an existing question and this being a global 24 hour platform it is impractical to monitor. Allowing conditional questions makes it easier for the QM to spot if a q is redundant. If we disallow conditional questions it puts an extra burden on the QM to spot redundant questions (ok no that onerous but still). I simply don't see the harm in cq's.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Jamiet99uk » Fri Mar 28, 2025 10:50 am

I am against conditional follow-up questions, and frankly, I'm against conditional guesses.

I think the fairest approach is to make it a rule that the QM must answer valid questions, and cannot defer answering a valid question until some arbitrary later point.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by JECE » Fri Mar 28, 2025 3:02 am

Aristocrat wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:55 am
JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:41 am
I agree with you on your first point. Your second point is a bit strange to me. For my most recent win, I asked a 'pinpoint' conditional question, but only for effect to add commentary/my opinion:
JECE wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2024 8:56 pm
 Was this person a murderous totalitarian known for wearing red?

If yes, Cardinal Richelieu
I definitely wasn't trying to 'snipe' a win since I had no doubt that I had the correct person in mind.
It wasn’t meant as a dig at you or a reference to that round in particular, since I think the answer was very gettable by the time you guessed it. I think there were some other rounds where conditional guesses significantly moved the game along more quickly than otherwise would have happened.
I just meant that I can't picture it (not that I've really been following very closely of late)

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by Aristocrat » Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:55 am

JECE wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:41 am
I agree with you on your first point. Your second point is a bit strange to me. For my most recent win, I asked a 'pinpoint' conditional question, but only for effect to add commentary/my opinion:
JECE wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2024 8:56 pm
 Was this person a murderous totalitarian known for wearing red?

If yes, Cardinal Richelieu
I definitely wasn't trying to 'snipe' a win since I had no doubt that I had the correct person in mind.
It wasn’t meant as a dig at you or a reference to that round in particular, since I think the answer was very gettable by the time you guessed it. I think there were some other rounds where conditional guesses significantly moved the game along more quickly than otherwise would have happened.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by JECE » Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:41 am

Aristocrat wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 11:17 pm
 A couple points (this was meant to be short, but I don't have any time to edit this down):

First, I don't think Spartaculous's idea was to deny Jamie a win or boost my (or anyone else's) chance of winning. It happens with some regularity that QMs will pause at 19 to get people a chance to give a free guess if so desired. But if people want to try a rule where a Q20 asked (as opposed to answered) cuts off free guesses, that's fine. Or that a QM has to answer a validly posed question instead of waiting, that's fine too. Of course, it's difficult to police the latter since a sly QM could just not post rather than announce that they're waiting for free guesses to come in, so you probably need both of the above for it to work.

I don't think there has been a QM win in 300+ rounds, not because people are so good at guessing, but mostly because QMs do this and that (wait for free guesses, offer additional questions, provide clues, etc.) to help the guessers and keep the QM seat rotating. This also has a bonus of allowing for a greater number of possible picks, because some of the more obscure or clever picks sometimes need a little extra. Sometimes those bonus pushes come at the (unintentional) expense of some players. I have made the point before of asking whether a clue is incoming, since there was a period of time where I seemed to miss answers with a bad guess only for QMs to come in and give a big boost with a clue right after. I don't think that is malicious, but it can be annoying to the player it seems to harm.

Second, my recollection is that conditional guesses were disallowed because people - generally the same people with a ton of wins - got very good at asking pinpoint questions that could only lead to one realistic answer, so it ended up being a way to snipe answers very early in the rounds and box out newer players (e.g., does this person have [XYZ] award during [this time period]? If yes, [conditional guess], where only [conditional guess] could be the answer). Conditional questions are a little different since the benefit doesn't just accrue to the player asking it.
I agree with you on your first point. Your second point is a bit strange to me. For my most recent win, I asked a 'pinpoint' conditional question, but only for effect to add commentary/my opinion:
JECE wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2024 8:56 pm
 Was this person a murderous totalitarian known for wearing red?

If yes, Cardinal Richelieu
I definitely wasn't trying to 'snipe' a win since I had no doubt that I had the correct person in mind.

Re: Twenty questions, round 502

by JECE » Fri Mar 28, 2025 2:29 am

DreamTrawler wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 11:17 pm
JECE wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 10:42 pm
miminena wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 27, 2025 10:29 pm

this is a good idea for a rule; I think it's in the spirit of the game for the qm to answer every question to the best of their ability, with the exception of when a question asks about redundant information
My version of the rules (that was in use for a while) had this as one of the ten commandments, more so as a means to forbid the use of conditional questions than anything.

I'm not sure why the current version of the rules allows for conditional questions, but not conditional guesses. I'm not sure that I agree with Jamiet99uk's complaint, but I can understand the frustration if he wasn't allowed a conditional guess.
I am against bringing back conditional guesses, personally. Primarily because I think I in particular was abusing them and it made the game kind of flowcharty - i.e. stuff like "If yes, is this person from the UK? If yes guess X, if no guess Y." Conditional questions are fine because they allow for more information gathering without someone being able to use them to cover multiple guesses. Also, the games are getting really fast, and conditional guesses would make them even faster.
The flowcharty argument applies to conditional questions too in my opinion. I'm still against allowing conditional questions. But you raise a fair point about banning conditional guesses too to slow down the games. I was previously neutral on whether to allow conditional guesses, but I now think that both should be banned.

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