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by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 6:43 pm
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 5:05 am This has been very interesting Captain. I wasn't insulted in the slightest. If I was ever grumpy in this thread, it's only because I'm a little tired of playing games with players who seem oriented at something other than winning (e.g., the much remarked-upon Carebear phenomena) and your medal seemed like something that might encourage/reward this playstyle. Your aversion to lying is probably noble in other contexts, but it seems to me totally unnecessary in this game. At a minimum, you will occasionally *need* to do sneaky things that other players would prefer you wouldn't. I strongly encourage you to let yourself off the hook for people who get mad! You're not responsible for their reactions. I just had someone get very mad about a stab that I was an absolute gentleman about. My stab wasn't the problem - it is their reaction that was childish, rude, and counterproductive. Partnering again with someone who stabs you is a fairly common occurrence, but it's less likely to happen when the stab-ee throws a hissy fit. Like you say, everyone should forgive a stab in a game that's based around stabbing. I also encourage you to try playing roguishly, even just for one game. See if you can lead a lamb to the slaughter. Share a rumour about another player that isn't true. Commit to do one thing and do the opposite. As we've fleshed out, these things aren't strictly necessary, but they're a legitimate part of the cornucopia of strategic options this game offers and they're fun! Maybe think about it like scaring someone. It's wrong to scare a random old lady by jumping out of the bushes. But if you're a horror movie director, then you're doing someone a service by giving them a good scare. I genuinely love when someone deceives me in this game - the more elaborate deception, the more fascinating I find it.
by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 5:05 am
by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:40 am
by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:35 am
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:59 am CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:39 am how far are we willing to go to achieve the supposed goal of maximizing points? Now we're at the crux of the issue. I think reasonable people can disagree about this.
CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:39 am how far are we willing to go to achieve the supposed goal of maximizing points?
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:59 am I think your position about the morality of lying in this game is a little extreme and probably not shared by many others. I also think your definition of deception is so narrow that you're giving yourself a pass for all sorts of deceptive press and actions that you're also participating in. I'm totally unconvinced that your stabs aren't fundamentally just like everyone else's lol. I also think that the game itself would stop working if everyone played in such a way as to be eligible for the award you've proposed - it'd just be role playing and big draws rather than actual competitive Diplomacy.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:59 am But I too found my own limit with a now-banned player, Ginge86. His press strategies were extreme. Sometimes they outright broke the rules (metagaming, sexually explicit and violent messages, etc.). But even in the circumstances where Ginge stayed within the lines (extreme anger, making a big show of throwing the game any time he didn't get his way, relentless spamming of press until he was muted, trying to make the game so unpleasant that it ended in a draw favourable for him, etc.), I found the way he played very distasteful. I doubt that his approach was always effective, but it certainly worked sometimes. Games with Ginge were interesting and sometimes fun. It was occasionally fascinating to see how the board would respond to his shenanigans. But too often it made the game unfun in my experience. I personally think a good loadstar is to act online more-or-less how you might act in an in-person gaming group. I'd definitely lie to a friend in an irl game of Diplomacy if it were strategic to do so, but I probably wouldn't squawk at them until they got so annoyed they didn't want to play anymore lol. There is one other game objective that does supersede the rules, which is that people should still want to play with you again in the future.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:59 am But despite this I would not want to narrow the range of acceptable press strategies. The free-form nature of this game is truly what makes it special and fun.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:59 am One other thing I'll mention is that deception and lying doesn't need to be done in an abusive way. I typically apologize after a particularly nasty stab. Even if Ginge had done all this crazy stuff, but then went in the global chat and said "sorry for putting you all through the ringer, but look, I achieved goals x, y, and z by being an extreme asshole" then maybe one could leave those games without such a bad taste in their mouth.
by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:11 am
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:35 am You actually don't get to define the point of the game for yourself. This is a strategy game with a clear scoring rubric. When you play a ranked game, you should be trying to win, where "win" is defined by the point system used in that game (SoS, DSS). When you decide unilaterally to redefine the point of the game, you're no longer playing that game, since none of your opponents are working towards the same goal.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:35 am If your Carebear / popularity contest medal was something that people really wanted to earn then it would sometimes encourage them to make decisions that might not be point maximizing. I think that would be bad in a competitive game that already has clearly defined win conditions.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:35 am Maybe you can just start a forum thread where people can shout out players who have mentored them, or who were especially polite after a stab, or who appear to have pulled off an exceptionally interesting win that isn't easily explained by luck or skills mismatch.
by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:59 am
by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:39 am
kestasjk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:49 am CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:09 pmMight I ask, though - what would be the purpose of giving CICERO deceptive powers? What good does it do? That's a surprising question :| I'm a terrible Diplomacy player but surely there are situations where you're about to stab someone and it's advantageous to lie and continue the impression of an alliance so that the player you're stabbing won't defend? (I'm not following this convo too closely, it seems a bit philosophical, so perhaps you're saying this in the context that lying in Diplomacy is always wrong / counterproductive?)
CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:09 pmMight I ask, though - what would be the purpose of giving CICERO deceptive powers? What good does it do?
kestasjk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:49 am However, that begs the question - how far are we willing to go for entertainment? If lying is allowed, why not thievery? Why nut murder? I know that is a slippery slope, and I am certainly NOT claiming that you are suggesting that murder or theft should be used for entertainment, but my question is - why should we allow lying but not other evils? Heheh.. C'mon, that's a bit much.. If you tell your child their drawing is really good when objectively it's the same house and sun and dog and tree with crayons crap you've seen a million times I don't know if that's on the same level as murder / theft. To say lying in a game is evil, where lying / deceit is kind of a core mechanic, it's in a sandbox where lying is allowed / limited to the game, and it emulates diplomacy between european powers where diplomats did lie.. It feels a bit like a communist being opposed to playing monopoly, just a bit silly.
However, that begs the question - how far are we willing to go for entertainment? If lying is allowed, why not thievery? Why nut murder? I know that is a slippery slope, and I am certainly NOT claiming that you are suggesting that murder or theft should be used for entertainment, but my question is - why should we allow lying but not other evils?
by kestasjk » Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:37 am
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:26 am kestasjk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:49 am I guess the only way you might be able to tell is if the orders were clearly not in the bot's interest / not optimal for itself / would encourage you do to something that might benefit it. Then you might realise that it's not generating text based on a logical order but on a pseudo-order. (But that's why in the code they're called "plausible pseudo orders", because they have to be plausible) Definitely not gonna get any signs of deceit from the generated text though. Yeah would definitely be interesting how strategic it could get; I do get the sense the capability for deception in the bot wasn't developed very far: - The limited amount of code that's disabled when you enable truthfulness, - Like you say deception in Diplomacy can be complicated and hard to pull off, - I know they had problems during development with the bot letting things slip, it has to have filters to ensure it's not revealing its plans, which would be a lot trickier with deception - They had issues where you could reply to a bot saying "thanks for agreeing to support me from X to Y" and the bot would generate orders based on that assuming it *had* agreed to that, you can imagine with deception it'd get a lot trickier I feel like the deception capability built in at the moment would only be useful for a sudden stab, i.e. deception across a single turn rather than over a long period / manouvring another player into a position they can be stabbed. (But again I've still got a lot to learn about how it works) It's interesting to think about how a bot might be deceptive. A bot can keep all of its lies straight and lie with exacting precision. It can make up a convincing story for nearly any circumstance. If it's trained well, it might be able to exploit different players in tailored ways based on their responses. I imagine that, if the current bots cannot do long-term cons yet, they will be able to in the near future. But as long as it's identified as a bot, there will be some limitations. It can't ever claim "oops, I entered that move by accident". And I imagine a bot player would have a harder time regaining trust after being caught in a lie. The apologies, explanations, etc., would just feel too insincere if it was known they came from a bot. Maybe one day we'll have bots that can get the timing of their messages right and can fully mask as human players (if that is permitted by the hosting site). The reverse will be interesting also. The bots' current limited engagement with deception (sounds like its just withholding information and silently stabbing when it makes sense at the moment) seems to also insulate them from human deception. If they really engaged in narrative play they would, by necessity, be exposed to and involved in potential elaborate plots from human players. This would go beyond the simple trick of trying to convince the bot it already agreed to a move - players could try to deputize a bot in a complex press strategy where it may be hard to know for sure whether or not it's in the bot's interest to participate.
kestasjk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:49 am I guess the only way you might be able to tell is if the orders were clearly not in the bot's interest / not optimal for itself / would encourage you do to something that might benefit it. Then you might realise that it's not generating text based on a logical order but on a pseudo-order. (But that's why in the code they're called "plausible pseudo orders", because they have to be plausible) Definitely not gonna get any signs of deceit from the generated text though. Yeah would definitely be interesting how strategic it could get; I do get the sense the capability for deception in the bot wasn't developed very far: - The limited amount of code that's disabled when you enable truthfulness, - Like you say deception in Diplomacy can be complicated and hard to pull off, - I know they had problems during development with the bot letting things slip, it has to have filters to ensure it's not revealing its plans, which would be a lot trickier with deception - They had issues where you could reply to a bot saying "thanks for agreeing to support me from X to Y" and the bot would generate orders based on that assuming it *had* agreed to that, you can imagine with deception it'd get a lot trickier I feel like the deception capability built in at the moment would only be useful for a sudden stab, i.e. deception across a single turn rather than over a long period / manouvring another player into a position they can be stabbed. (But again I've still got a lot to learn about how it works)
by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:35 am
CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:21 am Ultimately, it boils down to this: You believe that the ultimate purpose of Diplomacy is to win games. I believe that the ultimate purpose of Diplomacy is to be a skilled diplomat and have fun. These are irreconcilable ideas, and they impact every part of our discussion about honesty. It can not be proven that one is better than the other, as they are simply are fundamental principles of how we view the game. Therefore, I will not claim that your way of playing it disrespects opponents, undermines the spirit of the game, or some other such malarkey, and I ask that you do the same. We all play the game for different reasons, and those reasons ought to be respected each their own. Having medals would not raise one reason above another, but would rather highlight the areas in which the reasons are similar, the areas which everyone can agree are worthy of reward.
by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:26 am
by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:21 am
by kestasjk » Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:49 am
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:07 pm I'd love to see whether the bot could do better in some circumstances by indulging the lies it crafts with its pseudo moves. Maybe the bots are unconvincing liars, so the default to selectively-volunteered truth is better for them? I actually have the opposite intuition - in my experience a well-tuned GPT model can be an excellent liar.
The final frontier would be to see if CICERO could eventually get into the weeds of deception. I want a bot that tries to befriend players, that creates false narratives about other players' intentions, that gaslights players after stabbing them, etc. Maybe we'll find out that these approaches are rarely strategic, but I've seen human players make them work.
by Esquire Bertissimmo » Tue Nov 07, 2023 1:26 am
by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 12:58 am
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:51 pm CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:41 pm However, in Diplomacy, lies are not a playing of the game to the fullest. Why would you lie when you could become a better player instead? As far as a mark of respect, with that rationale one could say that cheating is a mark of respect, since it makes it harder for the others to win. I'd like to corner you on the idea that deceit in either your moves or press is a necessary part of truly competitive play. I think this is undeniable. When you say that not lying/deceiving makes you a better player, you are tacitly agreeing that lying/deceiving is sometimes a good strategy. You could choose to try to train your other methods of persuasion or your gunboat ability by keeping your deceit to a minimum, but if you're in an evenly-matched game you disrespect your opponent by handicapping yourself. This has nothing to do with cheating, which is obviously unsportsmanlike and not even possible in the online implementation of this game.
CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:41 pm However, in Diplomacy, lies are not a playing of the game to the fullest. Why would you lie when you could become a better player instead? As far as a mark of respect, with that rationale one could say that cheating is a mark of respect, since it makes it harder for the others to win.
by CaptainFritz28 » Tue Nov 07, 2023 12:48 am
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm If you're not earnestly trying to maximize your points then you're not playing Diplomacy. At best you're roleplaying, but it's an odd role since no real nation is truthful in its diplomacy during a time of war.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm Your medals wouldn't ruin the game, but they would give a prize for something other than just playing well. If that incentivized anyone to take a sub-optimal move, then it would be bad for the game as a whole.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm I think my chess example is clarifying. Someone who insists on never moving their pawns might be able to beat a total noob, but they will never beat a player who is equally matched or better. Yeah I guess dunking on noobs with a bad strategy is within the rules of chess, but playing a strategy that handicaps oneself unnecessarily is bad sportsmanship if both players believe they're playing to win.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm You can win a game of Diplomacy without explicitly lying, but in a genuinely competitive game you have to be deceitful. You have to stab. You won't always be able to pre-announce your stabs if your opponents are good at the game. Even if you did, you were still deceitful in the lead up to the stab. This is such a central game mechanic that a popular online implementation of the game is called "Backstabbr".
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm The game is based on bluffing. Objective fact. Players commit to their moves secretly and reveal simultaneously - the essence of bluffing. Just because you might choose to always pre-announce your move doesn't mean it's not a game about bluffing. I could show everyone my hand in Texas Hold-em, but as long as everyone else is playing normally then it's still a game about bluffing.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm Lying doesn't make you better or worse at the game. It's a strategy that is almost surely good in some circumstances and bad in others. A great player will know when to use this tool and when not to. A player who never ever lies won't develop this skill.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm Lying in a game that allows for lying, encourages it in some cases, and is actually prolific for being about deception is not morally wrong.
Esquire Bertissimmo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm I was sloppy when I said "rules" require lying. What I was trying to say is that a player trying earnestly to maximize their points in a genuinely competitive game will need to be at least somewhat deceitful in their moves or press. If you play only noob games or are fine with always ending in 3-7 player draws then you can occasionally just pick a couple allies, never stab anyone, and call it a day. Every other situation requires stabs.
by Esquire Bertissimmo » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:51 pm
by CaptainFritz28 » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:41 pm
Octavious wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:24 pm CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:45 pm I find it to be a moral evil, so I suppose you could say that, yes. Lying is not kind, nor loving, nor does it achieve the common good, nor does it serve anyone's purposes but oneself, nor has it ever been beneficial except as the lesser of two evils. This is a lie Father Christmas is a lie, and it is very much kind and loving. National myths are lies, and they can inspire community spirit, self sacrifice, and resistance against oppression. "I am just going outside and may be some time.", is one of the most famous lies in history, and is also one of the noblest and courageous acts of friendship and self sacrifice ever carried out. A lie in a Diplomacy game is an effort to play the game to its full and thus a mark of respect for your fellow players.
CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:45 pm I find it to be a moral evil, so I suppose you could say that, yes. Lying is not kind, nor loving, nor does it achieve the common good, nor does it serve anyone's purposes but oneself, nor has it ever been beneficial except as the lesser of two evils.
by Octavious » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:24 pm
by Esquire Bertissimmo » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:02 pm
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