M1027: Community - Game Thread

[dargorygel]

I've been trying to reconcile: Monarch and Bozo's work on a system to aid the investigator (they did come up with systems... and those systems could have hurt scum's chances by aiding the investigator) with the things that seem scummy about them (Monarch not carefully reading... bozo has less scummy things, but does not do much bozo things. He grilled/drilled one person, but usually we see more of that iirc.)

Why would scum... either one OR two... come up with systems? IF they were scum, they might do it because:
a) this room rarely follows through on such things. So it is safe.
b) there is a flaw in it (like the non-self voting thing) that might be a chink in the armor (ie... if we had not discovered the self vote issue, might that have made a difference later? On the other hand, how would it NOT have been discoovered...)
c) if the room DK's scum... and bozo and/or monarch survive because they seem 'clear', they can end up winning. "Sacrificing" the scum that got caught in the net, but riding through on their own wave.

It seems unlikely, but possible. BOTH are clever enough to do this. EVEN coming up with the system pre-game, and implementing it as scum or town.

How is this different from any other genre where scum join in on mechanical discussions to fit in? Do I look good for driving consensus? Did Kak look good for going against the grain? Does everyone else look good for expressing their own opinions?

Why do you sound so grumpy here??

There is a difference, imo, between STARTING the mechanical plan, and discussing/taking part.

[sweetandcool]

It very predictably went poorly for him. I think mafia are usually hesitant to talk about the PR reads that motivated their nightkills.

Ah, but the most scummy thing about me is that I claim I can make honest alignment reads as Mafia.

There really is no way to get around it, so you might as well vote me for that reason alone.

I also don't remember scum sweet being this indignant on the block.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure I've never been a wagon for such incredibly smoothbrained reasons.

[Jamiet99uk]

Why did you give up on Hamilton Brian when there was 2 minutes left?

I literally said in the vote post.

I moved to break the tie Damo had caused. I said so at the time.

Yes, but why not wait longer to see if someone else would break the tie in the direction you preferred?

There were three minutes left to go, Bozo.

How long should I have waited?

[BK3K]

I think voting damo for low posting is just about the worst idea.

In fact, damo is making more of an impression D1 than he normally does. He tends to be more impactive D2 or D3. Give him time to warm up.

Nobody, maybe damo.

Do have a few reasonably strong town reads. But none are in the chopping block.

Why did you argue against a damo DK then 2 minutes later say he was your only scum read?

Obviously I already had reasoned that damo was either trying to eat the NK or was Mafia.

The right play was to preserve him D1 and probably D2, to put pressure on Mafia to NK him. If he wasn't the NK on N1 or N2 then he either would have been Mafia or we would have been outplayed by Mafia.

Separate from that is the fact that voting damo for low activity D1 is smoothbrain. It's bad regardless of his alignment.

I thought he was more likely Mafia and consequently scumleaned him. And if he actually somehow was investigator, then suspecting him without voting him would provide some small protection for him.

Hmmm maybe I do change my vote...

[dargorygel]

Two things:
1) sweety likes the word smoothbrained.
2) bozo is not reading carefully. He has asked questions, at least twice, about voting reasons that are in or near the vote post.

[Jamiet99uk]

I literally said in the vote post.

I moved to break the tie Damo had caused. I said so at the time.

Yes, but why not wait longer to see if someone else would break the tie in the direction you preferred?

There were three minutes left to go, Bozo.

How long should I have waited?

You can see from the time-stamp that in fact there were only two minutes remaining when I cast my vote.

And Bozo thinks I should have "waited longer".

Sure.

[sweetandcool]

To comment on the narrative about mechanics and allocating town credit as a consequence:

Mafia can be self conscious.

If a Mafia member thinks of something, they take for granted that town will eventually think it too and consequently they want to suggest it themselves to look better.

A fine example of this is last game where ghug and worcej felt compelled to mention how strange it was that ghug was still alive. It didn't "make sense" for Mafia to point it out and "help" town, but they did and were in fact the only players to mention it.

If, for example, Bozo was Mafia, I think it likely that he would have driven a discussion on mechanics in exactly the same way as he did this game. Because he would do the same as town and because he took it for granted that town would reach the same conclusion eventually even without his help.

I allocate precisely zero town points for all mech planners on D1.

[bozotheclown]

I literally said in the vote post.

I moved to break the tie Damo had caused. I said so at the time.

Yes, but why not wait longer to see if someone else would break the tie in the direction you preferred?

There were three minutes left to go, Bozo.

How long should I have waited?

It seems like you could have waited another minute if you preferred Hamilton over Kakarroto, but Hamilton and Kakarroto had not voted for each other yet, so I realize it was a complex situation.

[Jamiet99uk]

To comment on the narrative about mechanics and allocating town credit as a consequence:

Mafia can be self conscious.

If a Mafia member thinks of something, they take for granted that town will eventually think it too and consequently they want to suggest it themselves to look better.

A fine example of this is last game where ghug and worcej felt compellled to mention how strange it was that ghug was still alive. It didn't "make sense" for Mafia to point it out and "help" town, but they did and were in fact the only players to mention it.

If, for example, Bozo was Mafia, I think it likely that he would have driven a discussion on mechanics in exactly the same way as he did this game. Because he would do the same as town and because he took it for granted that town would reach the same conclusion eventually even without his help.

I allocate precisely zero town points for all mech planners on D1.

I agree with you.

[Jamiet99uk]

Yes, but why not wait longer to see if someone else would break the tie in the direction you preferred?

There were three minutes left to go, Bozo.

How long should I have waited?

It seems like you could have waited another minute if you preferred Hamilton over Kakarroto, but Hamilton and Kakarroto had not voted for each other yet, so I realize it was a complex situation.

Kak, in particular, was sitting on "no kill" and was present (because we could see his +1s) but not participating. That, in fact, also pinged me. But the fear of him moving at the last second to cause a tie had also been mentioned.

[ghug]

I've been trying to reconcile: Monarch and Bozo's work on a system to aid the investigator (they did come up with systems... and those systems could have hurt scum's chances by aiding the investigator) with the things that seem scummy about them (Monarch not carefully reading... bozo has less scummy things, but does not do much bozo things. He grilled/drilled one person, but usually we see more of that iirc.)

Why would scum... either one OR two... come up with systems? IF they were scum, they might do it because:
a) this room rarely follows through on such things. So it is safe.
b) there is a flaw in it (like the non-self voting thing) that might be a chink in the armor (ie... if we had not discovered the self vote issue, might that have made a difference later? On the other hand, how would it NOT have been discoovered...)
c) if the room DK's scum... and bozo and/or monarch survive because they seem 'clear', they can end up winning. "Sacrificing" the scum that got caught in the net, but riding through on their own wave.

It seems unlikely, but possible. BOTH are clever enough to do this. EVEN coming up with the system pre-game, and implementing it as scum or town.

How is this different from any other genre where scum join in on mechanical discussions to fit in? Do I look good for driving consensus? Did Kak look good for going against the grain? Does everyone else look good for expressing their own opinions?

Why do you sound so grumpy here??

There is a difference, imo, between STARTING the mechanical plan, and discussing/taking part.

Townreading people for mechanical contributions has long been a pet peeve.

[sweetandcool]

Sidenote, how egotistical is it to think it's strange that you are still alive in the endgame because you think you are such a good player?

I actually respect the abilities of many players (though this game, frankly, most players seem absolutely devoid of any ability whatsoever), but I'm never going to let my perception of another player's ability influence my NK choice (when I am Mafia,which I am not this game). It gets a bit boring when Mafia targets the same few players over and over for the NK.

[bozotheclown]

To comment on the narrative about mechanics and allocating town credit as a consequence:

Mafia can be self conscious.

If a Mafia member thinks of something, they take for granted that town will eventually think it too and consequently they want to suggest it themselves to look better.

A fine example of this is last game where ghug and worcej felt compelled to mention how strange it was that ghug was still alive. It didn't "make sense" for Mafia to point it out and "help" town, but they did and were in fact the only players to mention it.

If, for example, Bozo was Mafia, I think it likely that he would have driven a discussion on mechanics in exactly the same way as he did this game. Because he would do the same as town and because he took it for granted that town would reach the same conclusion eventually even without his help.

I allocate precisely zero town points for all mech planners on D1.

That is true, but I am still waiting to hear the reason you are voting for me.

[dargorygel]

How is this different from any other genre where scum join in on mechanical discussions to fit in? Do I look good for driving consensus? Did Kak look good for going against the grain? Does everyone else look good for expressing their own opinions?

Why do you sound so grumpy here??

There is a difference, imo, between STARTING the mechanical plan, and discussing/taking part.

Townreading people for mechanical contributions has long been a pet peeve.

I am NOT townreading them for it. I am voicing that there seemed to be a 'trusting' of the two proposers early in the game. So I was trying to determine publicly some reasons for their action, as mafia-potentials. In fact, because scum WOULD have motivations, their pre-planning might be supportive evidence. On its own, not enough. But on its own, not clearing either.

[ghug]

Sidenote, how egotistical is it to think it's strange that you are still alive in the endgame because you think you are such a good player?

I actually respect the abilities of many players (though this game, frankly, most players seem absolutely devoid of any ability whatsoever), but I'm never going to let my perception of another player's ability influence my NK choice (when I am Mafia,which I am not this game). It gets a bit boring when Mafia targets the same few players over and over for the NK.

With me and worcej last game, it was more about the fact that I've been an early kill a lot recently and the fact that both of us came out of your flip looking very good and thus like viable nightkills. I think people dying early consistently is more about mafia knowing it gives less information if they target someone a lot of scumteams have targeted.

[sweetandcool]

Sidenote, how egotistical is it to think it's strange that you are still alive in the endgame because you think you are such a good player?

I actually respect the abilities of many players (though this game, frankly, most players seem absolutely devoid of any ability whatsoever), but I'm never going to let my perception of another player's ability influence my NK choice (when I am Mafia,which I am not this game). It gets a bit boring when Mafia targets the same few players over and over for the NK.

With me and worcej last game, it was more about the fact that I've been an early kill a lot recently and the fact that both of us came out of your flip looking very good and thus like viable nightkills. I think people dying early consistently is more about mafia knowing it gives less information if they target someone a lot of scumteams have targeted.

I guess that's true too, sorry.

[Hamilton Brian]

@ham
What is your view of buddying as a tactic? If you were scum, might you buddy? Why or why not? And HOW would you buddy?

I am sure to be corrected here but in my opinion, buddying is a suitable mafia tactic where one tried to make oneself inextricably linked to a known town entity. Others in the group can't help but think of the one when they think of the other.

If I were mafia, would I buddy? Probably. How would I do it? Probably by confirming everything said buddy was putting forth.

Would I know it to see it? I doubt it. So much gets written in these games each day that it's hard to keep track of something like that. It would have to be so blatant, but even then...

And why ask me in particular?

[rdrivera2005]

Why aren't we looking more at the pool of Kak voters?

Why should we look more on the pool of Kak voters?

Why shouldn't we, though?

I don't know. I didn't say that. I made a question to HB, which I suspect might be trying to get a different wagon started without a real suspicion.

Why you decided to answer this, specially considering you are doing nothing other then talking about other games?

[Hamilton Brian]

Who would you like to start with?

But in all seriousness, I think we need to open the books on MadMonarch, worcej, Chaqa. Will and Heart too.

So everyone but Jamie then? Any further preference? Can you open the book or are you expecting others to?

We have a lot of hours remaining! I'll be working on it.

Regarding Jamie, I reconcile not including Jamie as a voter for this pointed reason. Jamie sought to avoid a tie; Damo created the tie. Would mafia Jamie make a move on the vote or sit back and let whatever happens happen?

Jamie is still fairly town to me...for the exasperation shown on D1.

[Hamilton Brian]

Why aren't we looking more at the pool of Kak voters?

Why should we look more on the pool of Kak voters?

Known town death.

Had 8 votes on them.

Odds are...?