War, what is it good for?

[Octavious]

First of all, Jeremy Corbyn is still a member of the Labour Party, so the phrase "thrown out" is inaccurate.

I am aware he was allowed to return, which I thought was clear from the context. There's very little point in him being banned from standing as a Labour MP if he was permanently banned from Labour.

Second of all, the reason for preventing him from standing again for election as a Labour MP is because Kier Starmer wishes to purge the Labour Party of socialists. The antisemitism allegations were a convenient vehicle. Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite.

"He's not an antisemite, he's a victim of the man" is a rather tired old excuse that has been used to defend antisemites for generations. Out of curiosity, though, would you consider Piers to be antisemitic based on his Tweet that the Hamas attacks were an Israeli false flag operation?

[Octavious]

On the subject of the Labour Party, the BBC reports that 68 Labour MPs have publicly expressed support for Palestine in a manner which is at odds with Keir Starmer's pro-Israeli Government stance. 17 of those MPs are members of Labour's front bench. Yesterday Imran Hussain MP resigned from his front bench position over the issue.

It will be interesting to see how power-mad Starmer deals with this situation.

Power mad Starmer? Really? Every political leader could be described as power mad from a certain perspective, I guess, but Starmer more so than anyone else?

The one bright spot of this whole mess is that it's making Starmer squirm a bit and feel uncomfortable. If it wasn't for the election being a walk in the park it would be a bit of a disaster. As it is, at worst he'll have a slightly smaller majority

[Jamiet99uk]

First of all, Jeremy Corbyn is still a member of the Labour Party, so the phrase "thrown out" is inaccurate.

I am aware he was allowed to return, which I thought was clear from the context. There's very little point in him being banned from standing as a Labour MP if he was permanently banned from Labour.

Second of all, the reason for preventing him from standing again for election as a Labour MP is because Kier Starmer wishes to purge the Labour Party of socialists. The antisemitism allegations were a convenient vehicle. Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite.

"He's not an antisemite, he's a victim of the man" is a rather tired old excuse that has been used to defend antisemites for generations. Out of curiosity, though, would you consider Piers to be antisemitic based on his Tweet that the Hamas attacks were an Israeli false flag operation?

I'm not going to go around the houses with you again about whether or not Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite. My views are clear. I have met Jeremy Corbyn. I personally know people who were in Jeremy Corbyn's team while he was Labour leader. I am confident in my assessment of the man.

To your question, I think Piers is a raving nutcase. Beyond that I'm really not sure.

[orathaic]

Just as an aside. Hamas may have killed hundreds, but then the Israeli military didn't bother to distinguish between targets before opening fire. According to (checks notes: Israeli sources)

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

[Jamiet99uk]

Just as an aside. Hamas may have killed hundreds, but then the Israeli military didn't bother to distinguish between targets before opening fire. According to (checks notes: Israeli sources)

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

Israeli forces indiscriminately killing not only Palestinian civilians but also (checks twice) Israeli civilians?

Wow.

[orathaic]

Just as an aside. Hamas may have killed hundreds, but then the Israeli military didn't bother to distinguish between targets before opening fire. According to (checks notes: Israeli sources)

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

Israeli forces indiscriminately killing not only Palestinian civilians but also (checks twice) Israeli civilians?

Wow.

Well, at least the aren't discrimination?!

[Octavious]

Just as an aside. Hamas may have killed hundreds, but then the Israeli military didn't bother to distinguish between targets before opening fire. According to (checks notes: Israeli sources)

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

Checks source... A Syrian posting Russia Today videos on Twitter? We've certainly come a hell of a long way from the start of this thread

[Octavious]

I'm not going to go around the houses with you again about whether or not Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite. My views are clear.

I couldn't agree more. Jeremy Corbyn's history on this issue is a matter of clear public record, your opinion is unlikely to change regardless of what I say, so there is little point discussing it further. I am somewhat surprised that you are able to make such a confident assessment after a meeting, however. I generally takes me far longer.

[orathaic]

Just as an aside. Hamas may have killed hundreds, but then the Israeli military didn't bother to distinguish between targets before opening fire. According to (checks notes: Israeli sources)

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

Checks source... A Syrian posting Russia Today videos on Twitter? We've certainly come a hell of a long way from the start of this thread

Who are middle East monitor?

[Jamiet99uk]

I'm not going to go around the houses with you again about whether or not Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite. My views are clear.

I couldn't agree more. Jeremy Corbyn's history on this issue is a matter of clear public record, your opinion is unlikely to change regardless of what I say, so there is little point discussing it further. I am somewhat surprised that you are able to make such a confident assessment after a meeting, however. I generally takes me far longer.

I made clear reference to more than one source for my view of the man.

[Octavious]

Just as an aside. Hamas may have killed hundreds, but then the Israeli military didn't bother to distinguish between targets before opening fire. According to (checks notes: Israeli sources)

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

Checks source... A Syrian posting Russia Today videos on Twitter? We've certainly come a hell of a long way from the start of this thread

Who are middle East monitor?

According to Wikipedia they are a pro-Palestinian lobby group based in London known for being an outlet of the Muslim Brotherhood and pro-Hamas content

[CaptainFritz28]

Just as an aside. Hamas may have killed hundreds, but then the Israeli military didn't bother to distinguish between targets before opening fire. According to (checks notes: Israeli sources)

https://x.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654

Israeli sources. Hmm. Yes, I'm sure a pro-Hamas news group is entirely objective and an Israeli source. That aside, what sort of source is this? Quoting a tweet? Really? Come on, I'm currently at a speech and debate tournament, and I have confirmation from all of my fellow team policy debaters that Twitter is just about the worst place to get a source. I'm sure "Syrian girl" is bound to give me the truth, yes.

If this were real, all of the big liberal media outlets would be touting this as Israeli terrorism. Just look what they did with the hospital strike on October 17.

[Jamiet99uk]

There is now no functioning Hospital in todau

[CaptainFritz28]

There is now no functioning Hospital in todau

A truly terrible consequence of Hamas' unjust invasion into Israel. How they could have such little care for their own people as to put them not only knowingly but purposefully into the line of fire is beyond me.

[Jamiet99uk]

There is now no functioning Hospital in Gaza.

Sorry my fat fingers made a mess of that. I have edited it.

Today the WHO confirmed that mass graves are being dug for the bodies of civilians, including newborn babies, murdered by Israeli forces.

More evidence of the ongoing genocide being carried out by Israel.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

There is now no functioning Hospital in todau

Do you believe that Hamas runs military operations out of civilian targets in an intentional effort to win PR victories like "Israel destroys hospital"?

The evidence that Hamas intentionally co-locates military targets near, and conducts missile strikes from, residential neighborhoods, cemeteries, schoolyards and mosques is overwhelming (including in this current war). There is also very strong evidence that in the 2014 conflict Hamas did, at one point, locate its military headquarters under a hospital.

However, the evidence that Hamas is operating from inside/under hospitals during this particular conflict seems very weak and contested. I'm torn what to believe myself: history suggests that Hamas probably is using this tactic, but Israel has not produced any solid evidence to back up its claims this time around.

In the absence of strong evidence, maybe just worth thinking through the logic of the situation. If, as Jamie believes, Israel's goal is just to kill as many Palestinians as possible while minimizing bad PR points, why target a hospital at all? Surely it'd be easier to just murder them in back alleys and with rocket strikes on other civilian targets that would get much less attention. My guess is they (Israel/the IDF) genuinely believe there are military targets in/under the hospital and, if that proves to be true, then its war crime v. war crime (hiding active combatants and war planners in a hospital v. attacking a hospital).

[Octavious]

There is now no functioning Hospital in Gaza.

Sorry my fat fingers made a mess of that. I have edited it.

Today the WHO confirmed that mass graves are being dug for the bodies of civilians, including newborn babies, murdered by Israeli forces.

More evidence of the ongoing genocide being carried out by Israel.

22 of 36 - MORE THAN HALF the hospitals in Gaza are non-functional due to lack of fuel, damage, attacks and insecurity.

The World Health Organisation seems to disagree with you, Jamie. Why do you insist on spreading disinformation about the Gaza situation time and time again?

Out of curiosity, do you believe Hamas should be allowed to remain in power? And do you consider Hamas to be a terrorist group?

[Jamiet99uk]

To address both of you:

1. WHO officials, the red cross, and other medical professionals not associated with Hamas are on record as saying there is no secret Hamas base under that hospital.

In any case, as I have repeatedly pointed out (with evidence), Israel strategy is deliberately intended to maximise destruction and damage, rather than seeking to avoid civilian casualties. This is a war crime.

2. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, yes. I have repeatedly stated in this thread that I do not support Hamas or condone their actions. I am happy to state that yet again. They should not remain in power, no. They were enabled to take power in Gaza as a result of Israel's deliberate sabotage of the peace process.

[CaptainFritz28]

Glad to see you agree they shouldn't remain in power. Unfortunate to see that you still don't recognize that the only way to get them out of power is their destruction. Terrorists stop at nothing, and do not care for civilian lives or peace. The same is true for Hamas.

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

This seems hinge on evidence that none of us will be able to produce to the others' satisfaction.

We know for sure in previous conflicts Hamas extensively used hospitals to shield military activity, including hosting a major military base underneath one in 2014. That's not this conflict, but it's recent enough to make me suspicious they haven't spontaneously stopped doing this in 2023.

We know with certainty that Hamas has used other civilian shields (schools, residential areas) in this current conflict, but not necessarily hospitals. One could debate each instance of Hamas' civilian shield tactics (they're forced to be the guerilla fighters due to circumstance, rocket site X was actually a couple hundred metres from school Y, etc.), but that line of thinking ignores a very clear pattern: Hamas is a terror organization that has demonstrated its willingness to encourage Palestinian civilian deaths for political effect.

Now there are conflicting reports regarding evidence that, in this conflict, Hamas has used hospitals as shields for military activity. I haven't seen anything definitive from anyone neutral, but I'd be very interested in seeing it if others have. Where are these WHO officials outright saying Israel's claims are false? Reporting from CNN, the Guardian, and NYT both-sides the argument so I'm surprised to hear that it's known for sure that Hamas wasn't doing anything inappropriate at Al-Shifa. I don't know why the Guardian, for example, would suppress clear evidence against Israel's claims.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/middleeast/israel-alleges-hamas-armory-under-hospital-in-gaza-hnk-intl/index.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/what-is-happening-at-al-shifa-hospital-and-why

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/world/middleeast/gaza-al-shifa-hospital-world-health-organization.html#:~:text=The%20W.H.O.%20said%20on%20Sunday,patient%20deaths%20had%20increased%20significantly.