Finished: 03 PM Fri 03 Dec 10 UTC
Private Diplomatic Relations-3
2 days /phase
Pot: 140 D - Autumn, 1908, Finished
Classic, Survivors-Win Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
24 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1906: Oh, I thought we were all Mtl based. Sorry.
24 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1906: I don't think I'd be up for the fast (multiple hour) games and have to agree that the diplomatic aspect of the game is kind of paramount for me.
24 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1906: He's alive!
24 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1906: I agree with yellow. Either correnspondence based, long term, games or f2f. No compromise.
24 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1906: Thanks Barney!
24 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1906: James (mastakenn) said he was up for another game. I think we should all do our best to encourage him to message us, though!
26 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1906: I might have a seventh player if we need. My brother in law plays a bunch.
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: I think Spain will see a lot of action this turn...
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: North Africa, on the other hand, has never been invaded and probably never will be.
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: It's not hard to make predictions when you know 3/5ths of the players moves. ;)
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: "3/5ths of the players moves" The moves of 3 out of 5 players....
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: I know. But still, we will see up to 9 units involved in the action for the control of Spain. That is quite a lot!
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: "when you know 3/5ths " I think I know the moves of 5/5 players this turn.
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: Watch out! Italy and France are sneaky. :)
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: Italy could end up convoying my A to Pie.
29 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: He should have!
30 Nov 10 UTC Autumn, 1907: I have to say GOL-WES did surprise me.
30 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1908: Since we're being artsy, I'm moving into Yor and Pie (unless you want to Russia) to remove all blue and green from the map. Perhaps you two can move into Nth Africa and Alb?
30 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1908: I can do ALB but NAF cannot be covered without using a fleet dedicated to the convoy.
30 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1908: Oh right. Well neutral is fine. Just remove those other ugly colors. :)
30 Nov 10 UTC Spring, 1908: Anyway, neutral is almost the same color as mine. So I'll claim it with the rest of Africa.
30 Nov 10 UTC behold, a star will soon be born... a sudden flare on the map, like a supernova
30 Nov 10 UTC can I pacify Pie then?
30 Nov 10 UTC I just found an old manuscript from the prophet...

A star will come to illuminate Europe.
All will see it for its light is very bright.
You will know it is time to stop war and pray.
For the real kings will be there to save you.
And you will live happily ever after...
30 Nov 10 UTC Amen!
30 Nov 10 UTC Hey Germany, where are you?
Let's finish this game and start a new one!!!
30 Nov 10 UTC Done, convoy in place. Sorry guys. It will still take a while to round everyone up for another game, anyway....

I like Laurie's request for a draw. :)
30 Nov 10 UTC Heh, that's a sight to behold. :)
30 Nov 10 UTC woooah!
30 Nov 10 UTC looks like the tracks in a high energy particle detector!
30 Nov 10 UTC come on Phil, Vote!
30 Nov 10 UTC I have to say that does look pretty cool.
30 Nov 10 UTC So anyone feel like doing some post-game discussion?
01 Dec 10 UTC I thought the points would be split based on number of SC. Glad we all take a third of the points.
01 Dec 10 UTC I feel ripped off... well, I guess one more argument against going for a draw when you have the lead...
01 Dec 10 UTC I was quite surprised that you (Russia) never made a move on Ser. You have all the troops there and it would have been pretty simple to snatch a few SCs at the end and be the victor.
01 Dec 10 UTC well, I decided to play fair with my allies... in retrospect, stabbing Turkey (1-2 years ago) would have been the "logical" move. Nothing wrong in being "loyal" though...
01 Dec 10 UTC 'You have all the troops there and it would have been pretty simple to snatch a few SCs at the end and be the victor' don't underestimate the efficiency of a German-Turkey alliance against a greedy Russia. Short term I would have gained 1-2 SC, peaking at 15, but make no mistake, they would have been able to create a stalemate before I reached 18.
01 Dec 10 UTC Here is my analyses of the game from my perspective...please feel free to comment, add, deny, whatever...
First, I was worried there could be a big conspiracy to eliminate me quickly as I was clearly an outsider. For this, I was glad I picked Turkey. With its corner defensive position, it was probably the best country I could pick (England is not bad either but I find it harder to develop without clearly opening a fight with France, Germany or Russia). But I didn't like much sitting right beside Nadim though. No offense, but I know what kind of merciless gamer you can be.
I was glad we (Russia and I) quickly agreed on a non aggression pact even if your fleet took the black. From there, I was confident I could stand my position for a long time as long as you wouldn’t stab me.
Nevertheless, I needed a second ally. A 2 on 2 in the Balkans can last forever until an outside power comes into play. This often happens when France or Germany becomes very big and can’t be stopped anymore. I tried as much with Italy and Austria and honestly thought Italy was in until the stab came up. What surprised me the most was not the stab itself but the timing and the lack of gain for Italy. I really got scared there Russia would turn against me as it was the only logical explanation in my mind. At every point, discussions with Austria went nowhere, we both wanted the same SC (namely Greece) and were simply not ready (or desperate enough) to make compromise.
So we were sitting there, Italy and Austria vs. Russia and I and neither side was making much progress. At the same time, we could witness that NW was setting up for a strong France and Germany. But FG is probably amongst all the possible alliances on this board the one I see crashing the most often. I don’t know if it is just too unnatural, but it rarely go all the way to the end. SO I was confident we could break it and get 1 of them to stab the other and back stab either Italy or Austria to our advantage. So I let Russia conduct the diplo with Germany while I tried to start something on my side with France. I didn’t get much on my side. I can’t say if I was just not approaching him the right way, if he was just resolute not to work with me or under the influence of another power but I was just hitting a dead-end. Luckily, my friend the Tsar got a better answer from Germany who accepted to get in a 3 way deal with us.
From there, or I should say, from the point Germany made clear moves confirming he was really in the deal, it was a walk in the park. France went against Italy; Italy on France, Austria had no place to go. Unfortunately for them, they couldn’t or did not want to regroup. I think your only chance was to form a 3 way alliance on your side and face us as one. Even then, I am not sure you had much chance as RGT work more naturally together than FIA.
Even if I was 99% confident Russia would respect the draw, I made sure with Germany that we would both counter attack should the Tsar attempt anything against either of us. I agree with Russia when he says he could have reached 15 or 16 SC, but there was no way he could get a solo win.
Finally, I think the unfortunate fact that England was quite absent screwed the dynamic of the board. A pressure on Russia in the North, a strong EF alliance, a lot could have been different. This game is meant for 7 dedicated players. Typically, I work very well as Turkey in exchanging info with England. Being so far apart, it often makes it easy to share secrets in full trust. That being said, I have no hard feelings toward mastakenn and believe it was not a lack of willingness but the outside world that took just too much of his time.
01 Dec 10 UTC And by the way, thanks all for the nice game and congratulations to Germany and Russia for the shared victory!
01 Dec 10 UTC "But I didn't like much sitting right beside Nadim though. No offense, but I know what kind of merciless gamer you can be" Heh, thanks, but the same applies to you :)

Not much to add...
02 Dec 10 UTC I agree, Turkey said it all. :)
02 Dec 10 UTC I had the fortune of having two very friendly neighbors, but also one kamikaze. Both France and Russia helped me recover from attacks by England and then Italy/Austria, so I felt a certain loyalty to both of them. In the end, Russia's plan for a realistic three-way split won me over; plus he would be more help against Italy and Austria. I regret stabbing France.... I probably should have set clearer boundaries on our alliance (like 4 turns, or until we take over England), rather than having it completely open. I was getting nervous that both of my neighbors were getting big without me, so I had to do something. ;)

At the beginning of the game, I was trying to cause as much mistrust as possible in the Southeast while the Northwest grew quickly; it sorta worked, except that it was France who grew quickly. ;)

I was hoping to have a Russia-Italy-Germany three-way alliance, until Italy attacked me. The reason was that Russia would have more room to expand *away from me*. In this situation he was all around me, so I was paranoid the whole game (until he declined to stab Turkey a few years back).
02 Dec 10 UTC One more thing I'd like to bring up on behalf of Italy, since I'm not sure he will be joining us for this discussion. I agree to some extent with this as well....

What does everyone think about the fact that Russia-Turkey-Germany's goal nearly from the beginning of the game was a three-way draw? Do you think we cheated? Should we always focus on the solo? There was at least one season in this game where I think we all acted illogically; Russia should have stabbed us, and we should have reacted to prevent the stab or even to counterstab.
02 Dec 10 UTC Oh, and is there anything we should do differently this game? I see that Turkey covered some of this above, when he said that the balance was all out of whack with England being absent; in other words, the guaranteed 3-way draw hopefully won't happen again this game.

Phil and Nadim, do most of your games end in 3-way draws?
02 Dec 10 UTC most of our games don't end :)
02 Dec 10 UTC we do have some finishing issues with F2F games.
But I have played quite a few online and I see a lot of 3 way. In fact, I think all the games I've played ended in either solo (about 33%) or 3 way (67%). The reason is, for me, pretty simple:
1. a solo win is very hard to get. You can grow up to 7-8 SC without a strong alliance but you will see the other powers react and you will hardly get past 10.
2. a duo win is even tougher because it requires both allies to get to 17 SC. At that point, a stab is way too easy unless you've build a clear stalemate line.
02 Dec 10 UTC And to answer the question "is it fair or cheat to form a 3 way alliance and stick to it?"
First of all, I reviewed my chat and I think we only brought it up in 1903. Before that, Germany was an enemy to me (or at least no friend). And for me, the deal got only sealed in 1904. 4 years later, the game is over. At the point we were, if Russia, Germany or I had tried to solo at that point, it was a suicide.
02 Dec 10 UTC "First of all, I reviewed my chat and I think we only brought it up in 1903." Good point. 1903 isn't the beginning of the game. Well, I feel better now. :)
02 Dec 10 UTC Just read the recap and thanks for the discussion. This was good afternoon reading. No hard feelings as France. I learned a lot from the game (my first game I played as Russia and got rolled over in about one year, so didn't get much from that) and I hope I can provide a more fulfilling partnership/adversary role in the next round.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Russia
Nad (154 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 47 D
13 supply-centers, 13 units
Turkey
philgonthier (221 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 47 D
11 supply-centers, 10 units
Germany
j.raynor (199 D)
Drawn. Bet: 20 D, won: 47 D
10 supply-centers, 10 units
France
andrewhy (113 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
Italy
laurie (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
England
mastakenn (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
Austria
saxus (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 20 D
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