Finished: 07 PM Fri 18 Jun 10 UTC
Featured Private TopTwentyGRC
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 1001 D - Autumn, 1911, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by MadMarx (36299 D (G))
14 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: Yes, a 2-way draw with TUR would be the best possible result. I could live with a three way with TUR and IT also. Can't you and ENG quit and let us settle for a nice three-way? :)

Btw, my question was not why TUR wants me - actually I was the one who approached him first offering my services - the question is why TUR was the only one to actually respond. Didn't you need me as an ally to stop him from winning just as much? I guess not... well, then, I guess you didn't want the draw as much as he wanted the win.

Sarcasm and irony are different to rage, don't you see all the smileys :)

I am just being a dick right now - which is a phase one goes to when he's given up all hope and is solely interested in making a point :)

You'll be in the same mental state in a few turns - after me and TUR kill you all and secure our two-way draw. Hope he does not stab me...
14 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: Because of extensive discussion my first statement may be forgotten, I'm repeating it once again: Kiel is supporting Munich to hold, so it's solely on Germany, if he keeps the stalemate line, or if he lets Turkey to win.
14 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: Ditto.
14 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: Ditto - if I were up there:)
15 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: The final stalemate was achieved, I think. Thank you Germany and Italy!
Would be Turkey so kind and add his vote for the draw?
15 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: Boy do I wish I were in Munich. I've never seen such a safe territory before in my life; except perhaps once when every territory around Spain lent their support to Madrid as well. =)
15 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: Sorry that took so long to disband. I didn't realize the phase had ended and I was teetering between disbanding the fleet in Naples or making the fleet in Naples disband.
15 Jun 10 UTC Autumn, 1910: I'm melting..... I'm melting....
Anyone there.... *crickets chirping*
15 Jun 10 UTC Spring, 1911: Sorry all, for missing the discussion, I was out of town for my niece's college graduation and I now have her family at my house for another day and a half. I'll take a look tomorrow sometime, hopefully before orders go through! ;-)
15 Jun 10 UTC Spring, 1911: No sweat... you didn't miss much. Just a bunch my being stubborn and Ger's calling me on it. :)
15 Jun 10 UTC Spring, 1911: There wasn't too much chatter really... just make sure you have a glass of wine and about 45 minutes of undisturbed time:)
16 Jun 10 UTC Spring, 1911: So many choices, so many choices.... what should I do?
16 Jun 10 UTC Spring, 1911: Id attack the Ionian with every one of your units. With that full frontal attack, you will take it easily :)
16 Jun 10 UTC Spring, 1911: Gentlemen, as you can see I decided to stick with TUR. Here's a brief explanation why, not sure if it will help much, but still - now that tensions are lower I'd hope this will bring some closure.

I don't want to betray TUR. I generally don't like to change sides at the last moment, if it was not for TUR I'd be dead ten times already, and for all practical purposes he was my only ally throughout this game - and a good one at that.

While I know that the risk is very small, I simply cannot stomach the idea of me helping E-F stop TUR and then getting eliminated. Having in mind what has been already said and done, and my precarious position with two centers in the middle, the simple fact is that such a risk exists - and even if is is less than a percent, it's still more than I can live with.

3. Just as a suggestion for future games - if you want someone to turn you have to do something about it. I told you what I wanted (a couple more centers, so that the risk of being stabbed is reduced) - not sure why you didn't accept any of my offers or didn't come up with your own - but that's not the point. Had you made me a good offer I would have not had any other option but to accept it - because:
- it would have been the right decision
- I would have had not justification, to myself even, let alone to others, to decline it

As it is you didn't, or at least not before it was too late (see point 2 above).

Thus, from my perspective, I simply had to play like I did. You left me with no choice but to turn this game into a race between TUR winning or E-F killing me. If you're taking such a road you'd better be damn sure you'll be the first at the finish line - and once ENG had NMR-ed it was clear TUR will win.

Which leads me to my final point - I do not think such play should be tolerated or encouraged. I know that if we remove all the history and just look at the map (as it was last turn) it would make sense for GER to seek a draw. However I can't erase my brain - and I took a general decision long time ago - that it makes no sense to be so good at this game if you can't have the luxury to play the way you believe it should be played. Which, in turn, may require being destructive and taking the conscious decision to lose.

I came to the conclusion I am willing to voluntary lose 10% or so of my games over issues like this - and I feel better this way at the end. This game is one of those.

Many apologies to IT for bringing him down along with me.

Congratulations to TUR for a good win.
16 Jun 10 UTC I guess at the end of the day Ger and I will have to agree to disagree. Ger writes that Eng and I "left [him] with no choice but to turn this game into a race between TUR winning or E-F killing me," and I concede that. Ger executed that strategy perfectly. We need not rehearse the motivations for Ger's decision or the Eng/Fra choice to try and wipe out Ger that began around 1906 at the point of Aus's CD. What is of interest, however, is the Ger decision at endgame, that is to say last season.

You see, it's a question of ends. As I mentioned above, I would have no quarrel with Ger's choice to allow Tur to become incredibly powerful if the end Ger had in mind was forcing Eng and me to include him in the draw. I've seen that strategy used effectively before and agree that it seemed to be Ger's best option given his circumstances in this game. But inclusion in the draw was not the end; Tur's victory was, and it is with this end that I simply cannot agree. I'm no game theorist, but simply cannot understand what, short of spite and/or revenge, would motivate someone to deliberately lose a game. Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that this site tracks "survival" statistics, perhaps there's a psychological explanation such as the pathological need to express control over one's destiny through self-destructive behavior (e.g. eating disorders or "cutting"). No matter what Ger's motivation was, like I wrote above, it seems we'll have to agree to disagree.

Additionally, I feel something must be said about Ita's role in Tur's victory. I certainly didn't envy Tur's position in this game. Trapped, just as Ger was, between the Scylla and Charybdis of Eng/Fra and Tur, Ita had to play a deft tactical and diplomatic game to try and ensure her/himself a place in the draw. And given the fact that hostilities between Ita and Fra began from the very start, it's clear why Ita was loath to trust me near the end. However, even as late as Autumn 1911, when it was all too clear, thanks not only to the map but also to the global chat, that Ger was handing the solo to Tur, Ita supported Tur's F Ion into TyS. It begs the question, was Ita playing the same game Ger was (play for "survival") but cleverly concealing it in her/his press? What other reason could s/he have for allowing her/his few remaining SC's, be surrounded by Tur units? Now, I'd like to believe that Ita did not throw this game, but her/his moves suggest otherwise.

Finally, I can't say enough to praise Tur on her/his victory (I already posted a short time back on that subject), but I'd like to reflect a bit on what I think was the best choice made in this game: the choice to help Ger and Ita gain SC's. Tactically, it's easy to see the benefit; Tur slowed the Eng/Fra advance, giving her/himself more time to mop up the SC's of the CD Aus and grow strong. But it's the diplomatic benefit of that choice that's more interesting to me. Both Ger and Ita cited Tur's help in gaining SC's as an influence in their decision making that handed the solo to Tur. Basically, by helping Ger and Ita grow slightly, Tur helped convince them to collapse spectacularly. That's some very impressive diplomacy.

Well, thanks to all for a challenging and educative game. I look forward to playing again some time soon!
16 Jun 10 UTC Thank you FRA for this:
"I'm no game theorist, but simply cannot understand what, short of spite and/or revenge, would motivate someone to deliberately lose a game. Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that this site tracks "survival" statistics, perhaps there's a psychological explanation such as the pathological need to express control over one's destiny through self-destructive behavior (e.g. eating disorders or "cutting")."

You probably won't understand me again :), but this gives me further comfort in knowing I made the right decision. You clearly didn't care to read, or lacked the capacity to understand, anything of what I wrote in this game.
16 Jun 10 UTC Nah... we'll play again. It'll be an anon game, and we'll be allies and most bestest of friends!
16 Jun 10 UTC To be succinct. My hoped for result in this was a draw - as Germany can best vouch for. Although I genuinely don't begrudge Turkey the victory, I most definitely preferred more than mere survival.

To speak toward France's question though. There were times I sincerely wavered in my stance (my hat goes off to Turkey's prose), but the most recent support to the Tyrr was actually irrelevent since he had a 4-on-3 advantage there and it couldn't break the stalemate line anyway once his fleet progressed. My goal was exactly what you pointed out though. The only way that I could guarantee inclusion in a draw was to assist another to the brink of victory and have myself in a key location where I could exert some control over the end game w/ the most minimal of resources.

From spring of '11 though, the only way I would have succumbed to allowing Turkey the victory would have been if Germany had been attacked. As long as he would have been guaranteed inclusion in the draw, I would not have buckled.

Hope that all made sense.
16 Jun 10 UTC Makes perfect sense. Like I wrote above, you were in a tight spot. Aus's CD bought you a slight reprieve, but only until Tur caught up to you on the back side. Ah... the joys of playing Ita!
16 Jun 10 UTC Actually, G, there's still time to force a draw if you've a mind to =)
No complaints from this side of the map.
16 Jun 10 UTC I think you have a better chance of convincing TUR to draw before the end of this turn, than turning me around.

I read and understand all your arguments - but as FRA said we'll have to disagree on this one.

You saw my explanation and arguments it is based on - I don't see anyone even daring to comment on them. FRA totally ignored my points and went straight to the guilt/insults part and doing me a psycho-profile :)

If someone can explain to me why I have to lie to my only ally and risk giving E-F the chance to eliminate me, please do so. I cannot explain it to myself.
16 Jun 10 UTC w/o knowing anything of the communique between you and Turkey; I wouldn't categorize the situation as lying or even misleading. It would be a simple statement of fact saying that it's in the best interest of your country to force a stalemate since it's the last remaining, ideal outcome for your country. It would then be in Turkey's best interest to try and convince F/E to whittle the field down to three before drawing; and it then becomes their choice on what to do. However, they run the risk of giving the game to Turkey if they attack either of us - so that would be quite a gamble.

I'm probably oversimplifying - again, because I don't know any individual messages - but in the here and now, what is the best possible situation/choice for our virtual countries and their respective citizens.
16 Jun 10 UTC For what it's worth, I've ordered A Bur and A Ruh to support A Ber to Mun, and I encourage Eng to order A Kie similarly. Meanwhile, I hope Eng will order A Nwy and F Bar to support F GoB to StP while F Bal hits A Liv to cut support. Why? Because I still think that Ger would prefer a draw, and I'd still like to give him the opportunity to have one. It's still there if you want it, Ger.

Additionally, it was not my intent to insult you by speaking of psychology, Ger. Speaking as one who once had an eating disorder, I know how powerful the irrational compulsion to create and illusion of self-determination can be, and I know how deliberately hurting oneself is an easy way to gratify those urges. And as one who suffered from that affliction, I can assure you that the comment was not meant as an insult but as a legitimate hypothesis in trying to understand something that is beyond my understanding. But if we're looking for insults in the global chat, Ger, take a gander at the chat log from Autumn 1910 when you wrote to me and Eng, "you're either not very smart, or quite the assholes."
16 Jun 10 UTC Trust me; I understand the inner turmoil. The Sultan is the only reason I've even got one SC left; else I would have been crushed a while ago. But I'd be (subjectively speaking) foolish to not consider the fortune of my current positioning and ability to use it to force a draw. Admittedly, I realize that I may not deserve to partake in it; and Turkey most likely/definitely deserves to win, but I've had to detach myself from those personal feelings and focus on the greater good of my pretend and displaced populace:)
16 Jun 10 UTC Sorry, my message crossed there w/ France's.
16 Jun 10 UTC Sorry guys. My main problem is that there'll be a chance for E and F to eliminate me - and as I said I simply cannot stomach that idea. I tried to explain this a long time ago, but it didn't catch up. Maybe you though you'd kill me faster, maybe you though I was bluffing, it's not important anymore. It is simply too late. it was too late a few turns ago actually, I just stopped arguing and responding at some point.as it made no sense.

This is what my intuition tells me, and on a certain level (spanning outside this game, i admit) I actually have a logical theory to support it. You might not believe me and think this is revenge - but I don't see it this way - this is how I play and it works for me, sorry.

Plus, I've actually first played this game in it's 'analog' version :), so I have some concepts of what is important and what I play for pre-dating points, ratings, and so on.

Survival means you were involved till the end - which is something (the 'Olympic principle' - participation is important). Yes, i know it's WTA, but I don't care. In my book survival in a WTA and in a PPSC are the same. A draw is better, but a five-way draw is not dramatically better than a survival. Certainly not good enough to make me play against my principles, gut and reason.

I guess this might make me an outlier, but I think the others should adjust, not me. if everyone played like me the games would be better and we would have closed this game a long time ago, with a draw. If you can prove me otherwise you'll cover the 'reason' part - and maybe I'll change my mind altogether.

This last paragraph is the only part I'm willing to discuss, so please, try to focus on it. We're going in circles otherwise.
16 Jun 10 UTC France and Italy: Thank you for trying to convince Germany. I admire your stamina that I lack myself. I've finalized the hold orders for all my units and I'm going to repeat the same orders without any further comments or negotiations until the game ends. If Germany changes his mind, let me know in the private chat, please, and I'll change my orders accordingly.

Thank you and congratulations to Turkey.
16 Jun 10 UTC @ Italy - I'll give it a shot:) Which paragraph though; Survival means... or I guess this makes.... ?
16 Jun 10 UTC oops... I meant @ Germany. lol (at myself).
16 Jun 10 UTC I've had company the last few days, and have been on the road and out of town, so have not absorbed the entire discussion on the global tab. That said, I couldn't agree with Germany's decision more! ;-)

Seriously, though, I'd do the exact same thing as Germany. If Germany does not help me solo, I pull back to the minimal southeast stalemate position, I vacate StP/Mos/War, I vacate Liv/Pru/Sil/Boh/Gal/Ukraine, even Sev if need be. I guarantee you without a doubt, regardless of what France and England say right now, Germany dies and is not a part of the draw. If I'm the German, no way in hell I reward France and England with a draw for their play in this game while I (as Germany) get eliminated. NO. WAY. IN. HELL!!!!

Pretty simple, really, in my mind...
16 Jun 10 UTC I say we test the theory - strictly for sociological purposes. We're all advocates of scientific research, right? =)
16 Jun 10 UTC I'm with Ita on this one. Let's see if we can't prove Tur wrong.
16 Jun 10 UTC It doesn't matter what Italy thinks, or what France thinks, or what I think. It really only matters what Germany thinks, and I think that has been made perfectly clear.
16 Jun 10 UTC I agree w/ Turkey on much of that; as each person's perception is their reality. I'm just not willing to concede the last part of the sentence.

A man or woman can change their mind. I have the most profound respect for Germany and his opinion in this matter. In this particular case though, I believe E and F will indeed hold true to their word and assure he partakes in the draw.
16 Jun 10 UTC The present choice is his, but we are all influenced by past events - I just would like to see it shown that negative past events don't necessarily project into a future w/o hope. Granted, E and F could prove me wrong and do as you suggest; I just don't believe they will.
16 Jun 10 UTC I can't speak for Eng, but I for one would like to elevate my game above my rhetoric, which hasn't exactly been civil. It would be, as the kids say these days, "some shameful shit" if I were to break my promise to Ger and wipe him out only to gain a few more points out of the draw. The draw is all I want. Like Ger, I came to this game the old way, face-to-face. When I started playing, the internet was still a military research project and you had to look another player in the eye when you stabbed him. Sure, you could do it, but it was hard to like it. And if you tried something like Tur proposes Eng and I would do, you rightly earned the contempt of the other six at the table.

So here it is in no uncertain terms. I want the draw, not the points, so I vow not to stab Ger and try to eliminate him if he chooses to join us in that draw.
16 Jun 10 UTC Satan himself would make that vow. (just saying)
16 Jun 10 UTC I prefer "Beelzebub." Rolls off the tongue quite nicely. :)
16 Jun 10 UTC Actually, I think Satan would speak from either side of the fence depending upon his desired outcome - just to be fair.

As Marcus Aurelius said, "Adapt yourself to the things among which your lot has been cast and love sincerely the fellow creatures with whom destiny has ordained that you shall live." I don't believe this was the ideal outcome for Germany or myself, but we must adapt and trust now the fellow countries that seek a similar outcome.
17 Jun 10 UTC I'm not trying to call anyone Satan here, so I'll ignore your guilty conscience! ;-)

My point is, I guarantee you that there is at least one person on this site that would promise Germany a draw if Germany did not help me solo, swear up and down with lots of sincerety in fact, and then immediately eliminate Germany as soon as the opportunity arose (though my guess is that at least 50% on this site would do it). In fact, that's how a very recent game ended, England promised France a three-way draw to keep Turkey from winning, then England killed France for the two way:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=22163

So, even if we agree there is only one person that pull that kind of stunt on this site, then there are two chances of that person playing England or France in here, and the risk of that is MUCH too real for Germany to risk helping the E/F to three-way draw with me (yes, Italy, you'd die too). If the chances are actually closer to 50% of the players on this site doing it, as I suggest, then Germany would almost certainly be eliminated if the German did not help me solo.

Okay, that's enough from me until after this phase processes.
17 Jun 10 UTC Damn; I'm the only one left to finalize. Well, there's not escaping it then:)

Good game everyone and congrats to the Sultan. It will be interesting to see who everyone is =)

Here goes...............
17 Jun 10 UTC Well played MM...
17 Jun 10 UTC Well, at least I was guessing correctly, who is Turkey and Germany :-)

Thank you for the game and congratulations to Turkey. You have your revenge for the previous one, MadMarx.
17 Jun 10 UTC I don't think I even knew who was in the game.
17 Jun 10 UTC Wow, I did not expect to see this...
17 Jun 10 UTC I knew it!
17 Jun 10 UTC Well, it's not a real victory with Centurian going CD, but you know what they say, it's better to be lucky than good! :-)

Thanks all for joining, this one and the 48 hour phase game were both excellent and I'll set up a couple like this again (one 36 hour phase, one 48), likely in September or October, and people that joined either of these first two will get their invitations first.
17 Jun 10 UTC Well, I know for a fact Marek is a very good player and V looks good too, so my assessment of skills was clearly wrong. I guess this only leaves communication...

Though, having in mind the public chat, maybe there was no way. Different 'religion' :)
17 Jun 10 UTC I started a thread on the forum to see what others thought of how to finish this game, as we discussed doing in the global thread. If you care to comment:

http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?viewthread=588567#588567
17 Jun 10 UTC I think I'd prefer to let the people just see the map and make their interpretations. Then we can keep arguing :)

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Turkey
MadMarx (36299 D (G))
Won. Bet: 143 D, won: 1001 D
18 supply-centers, 16 units
England
MarekP (12867 D)
Survived. Bet: 143 D
8 supply-centers, 8 units
France
V+ (3714 D)
Survived. Bet: 143 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
Italy
LanGaidin (1509 D)
Survived. Bet: 143 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
Germany
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
Survived. Bet: 143 D
1 supply-centers, 2 units
Austria
Centurian (3257 D)
Defeated. Bet: 143 D
Russia
BigZombieDude (1188 D)
Defeated. Bet: 143 D
Civil Disorders
Centurian (3257 D)Austria (Spring, 1906) with 3 centres.
Archive: Orders - Maps - Messages