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Finished: 04 PM Tue 05 Feb 13 UTC
Private Stalemate Series
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 35 D - Spring, 1912, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: Yup. Well done, resistance.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: A stalemate? Sure. But you can still push Italy or Austria out or the draw without destroying the line.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: No we can't. Italy has Naf and Pie which is vital to that line and Austria has Gal which is absolutely vital.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: And you have extra units.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: It's basic strategy. Sev and Ukr are required to hold Mos. Rum is required to hold Gal. If Gre and an army from Con take Bud and Vie, then one of them has to push on through to Gal to cover it. Meanwhile, Austria will see it coming the moment I move Con to Bul and Gre to Ser and may just throw the game out of revenge.

So it would be stupid of me to try to eliminate Austria.

Italy has three SCs and I have at best two fleets available to hit him and he has the ability to hit Ven in revenge and then support MAO *to* WMe thereby throwing the game to England. Again a stupid move on my part. I'm smarter than that.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: In fact, NAf isn't doing anything that Gulf of Lyons can't shift to do. Marseilles support hold Spain, shift your fleets, no worries. Piedmont, currently, is also doing shit. It isn't vital yet to support Marseilles, so you have a window, and if England is as friendly as he says, he'll probably hold off on forcing a threat long enough to squeeze the draw down.

I thought this game was about playing until there was a reasonable stalemate between three (at most four) powers?
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: No, it is about playing until a win or a stalemate is made. And with England in MAO, Gas, and Por (he will be), GoL and WMe are required to SH Spa while NAf keeps MAO from slipping in around behind the line.

Plain and simple, I won't do it and you can't make me. The line is set. There is no denying it. The rules of the variant have been met. We play five years to prove it if need be, then everyone is forced to draw. I will *not* attack and risk giving the win to England.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: It doesn't matter how friendly England is if Austria or I will throw the game, he'll take it.

Do you really think that Turkey could take my centers and move back to the stalemate line quick enough to stop England from poaching centers from France, especially with my units helping England at that point?

England would have to pull back a significant distance to make the attempt possible, and I would take diplomatic measures to minimize that possibility.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: Exactly my point. I can't both take the SCs *and* cover the disbanding units spots on the front lines for either Italy or Austria.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: I have thrown plenty of games... it's really fun.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: Lol Austria. We will see what happens but it does look like a draw but that doesn't mean the game is over yet.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: Throw this one and I'll throw you out a fucking window from the top of the Netherland Plaza in downtown Cinci!
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: Well then I should hope you don't attack me ;)
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: England, you hit a stalemate line. What's there to do? You are going to pull back and keep playing, bend the rules a bit, will ya? Press the draw button. We have all united against you to form this massive stalemate. That was the goal of this game. We have ended it. We have done what the rules require. Don't message me and tell me to throw it. Don't pull back. End the fucking game like you're supposed to do.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: Private chats aside, I'm good with this draw. A stalemate is clearly met. It would take a lot of withdrawing by England for me to even think about taking out one of the other three nations in this game.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: What? End the game like we're suppose to do? Where do you get that? There are 5 additional years for a reason mate. I can do whatever I want. The point of this game is for it NOT to end in a stalemate. Everyone is so afraid to lose that they just quit as soon as it's possible. Not on this game. Play till it's over. I don't hear any fat ladies singing just yet. Do you?
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: The point of this series is to prevent a solo. We stalemated you.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: No, it isn't. Almost every game prevents a solo. The point of this game is for it not to end prematurely as most do. The point of this game is to make it like a real life game where players don't play for points or rankings or whatnot and play till the job's done. We've only just reached lunch break. There's still half a game to play.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: So you are saying that, in real life, people will back off and let another military have a bunch of territory if they can't break past them?
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: In real life games? Yes, I am. What's the fun of playing a game if nobody wins? This isn't football.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: Funny sport that football, but hey, it's the world's most popular, and there are plenty of draws.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: But I never played it.
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: What did you play?
30 Jan 13 UTC Autumn, 1910: First off, y'all are confusing the five year number for three powers with no stalemate with the two year number for stalemates (site rules say two turns, so I don't really know why this one is longer, but so be it).

I joined this game because I'm tired of people forming triples and taking easy draws when one or more players still have shots at the solo. As others have said (arguing the wrong point, no less), we shouldn't be playing for rankings or points, but as the game was meant to be played, and eliminating people when a draw is certain is most certainly not playing the game as it is meant to be played.

England, if you had wanted your smaller draw, you should have backed off years ago when it was obvious that a solo was impossible, or, even better, waited to stab me until Italy and Austria were gone (I admit that I may just like that one because it would have given me sufficient time to put together a solo attempt, but whatever). You chose instead to play the game to a natural conclusion: a power close enough to a solo that the other powers can't try anything without great risk of aforementioned solo without any substantial upside. Face it, it's over.
31 Jan 13 UTC Spring, 1911: I have withdrawn my draw vote. If England is not going to see the draw and accept it now, then I say we push into him and see if we can't eliminate him then have a 4 way draw.
31 Jan 13 UTC Spring, 1911: Wait. I thought the rules of the game were the draw vote could not be repealed? Was that a different forum game? Was that this one?
31 Jan 13 UTC Spring, 1911: Here is the thread:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?viewthread=950161#950161

I do not see a rule about not repealing the draw vote.

I also found the rules in my PM and they are the same as on the thread.

I do remember something about no removing the draw, but I think that was in the gunboat series where you can't draw until a stalemate has been reached. The one with a funny name that probably makes sense if I know the language.
31 Jan 13 UTC Spring, 1911: What isn't in the rules is what is supposed to happen if a stalemate line is reached, some countries vote to draw, and then the stalemate line goes away. Are our draw votes supposed to go away too?
01 Feb 13 UTC Spring, 1911: Um, Turkey, I dislike the idea of pushing to eliminate England. It makes you too much of a solo threat and the rest of us too vulnerable. I'm sure Italy and Austria will agree with me here.
01 Feb 13 UTC Spring, 1911: Yup. We have a stalemate; we should draw.
01 Feb 13 UTC Spring, 1911: If he puts up a draw vote now before losing position, I will put mine up and draw.
01 Feb 13 UTC Spring, 1911: I personally won't be moving my units against anyone, and will instead hold out until the draw comes. Austria seems to have committed to the same. Hopefully Italy will follow. As we control the front line here, there's really not much else that can be done.

There are three countries that have any chance of not surviving to the end here, and England is unfortunately not one of them.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: OK a true stalemate line is set on both sides. England didn't back off so I have no intention of stabbing. Someone write the mods and have them look at it so they can interrogate England make him draw. I'm on my phone or I would. Meanwhile, all my support holds are in. Everyone in the anti-English alliance get your orders in.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: 6) Once a stalemate has been reached a player has 2 years maximum to break the stalemate. At which point they must vote Draw if the others players have done so.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Yeah? 2 years maximum means we could all recognize it and draw sooner.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: How can you say it's a stalemate when you've got players moving around? a stalemate is when players have no more moves to make. Technically, a stalemate has yet to form and I'm withing the rules of the game to play it until the stalemate is fully met.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Actually the mods use the definition of no SCs change hamds in 2 years. This is year one. If after next year none have changed hands then I will ask the mods to draw it for you. And hint. There won't be any unless you give us your SCs cause I have no intent of stabbing.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: And if you give your centers away, you won't be in any position to solo anymore. That's what stalemates do. They take away solos. There isn't going to be one now so draw.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Are you really changing your mind or are you just giving me a hard time in global so the others will just let you stab them. What happened to the 17/17 draw? I'm backing off as we agreed, just do your part. You are still going through with this right?
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: "What happened to the 17/17 draw?"

One of two things. One, of course, being that it's still on. The other being that he came to his senses.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Notva chance in hell would I try for a 17/17. Anyone who has ever been in a draw with me knows the smallest I go is a three way draw. 17/17 is for suckers begging to lose to the one who suggested it.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: And by the way, there was a third possibility. England outright lied. That is the actual reality. I said I would reduce the size of the draw after he backed off. I have not denied that. I never said I would try for a 2 way draw.
02 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: That's possible too. I just find it funny for two reasons... I'll keep those to myself though. England, draw.
03 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Turkey, you are full of shit. You lied unapologetically all game. You stabbed Austria or me as it seemed most expedient. Not only that, your "anyone who has been in a draw with me" comment is, as you would like to say, retarded, since, technically, none of us know who you are. You've all but announced your involvement in the two way draw, and when England told me about it, I was not surprised at all that you'd play that sort of turncoat. Fuck you.
03 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Well he pretty much revealed who he was earlier in the game and such talks behind our backs is certainly something I'd expect from him. I don't have a clue why he would listen to England and think about a three-way draw, but he's a good enough player that I *think* I can trust he knows otherwise. I'm not about to let him slide past me though. Anything happens between any one of us four and we all know the game is getting thrown; we're all capable of doing it.
03 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: ^Bitter Commie trying to alter the game.

I started this game the same as everyone else, looking for a solo. Did I stab? Fuck yeah! That's part of the game. But everyone here has already figured who I am, and if you haven't then you truly are a fucktard. (TM *me*)

So now you *better* know who I am and can go look up my ID and my game history to see I have never had a two way draw. Review my games in detail and you will see I have never *tried* for a two way draw.
03 Feb 13 UTC Autumn, 1911: Oh and if any of you try taking *my* SCs, I will be more than happy to help England get the win as well.

So I think that makes the four of us united.
03 Feb 13 UTC One more year folks. Stay the course and don't be tricked into trying to get his SCs. He wants the counter reset so we can't get a forced draw and he has more time.to try and trick us into giving him the win.
03 Feb 13 UTC I should probably drag this out just to keep reading all of the entertaining posts but I won't. I will end it with this final comment. I have never heard so much whining and belly-aching in global as I've heard in this game. Some of you guys are too much for me. Cheers
03 Feb 13 UTC Good game everyone, thanks for being reasonable CK, and thanks for setting it up. It was a fun idea and a fun game, and I'd be glad to try another at some point.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

England
C-K (2037 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
16 supply-centers, 16 units
Turkey
Draugnar (0 D X)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
9 supply-centers, 9 units
France
ghug (5068 D (B))
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
4 supply-centers, 4 units
Italy
Alderian (2425 D (S))
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
Austria
bo_sox48 (5202 D Mod (G))
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
2 supply-centers, 2 units
Germany
Le_Roi (913 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Russia
dubmdell (556 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Civil Disorders
Le_Roi (913 D)Germany (Spring, 1904) with 1 centres.
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