Sorry for not following up with this thread, been swamped at work. Yanik was mostly correct in his early postings, though I would have taken a different approach to the explanation.

Basically, no one does or ever has had a right to a man-made good or service. You have the right to actions. You do not have a right to a gun. You have the right to wield a gun. You have the right to your life (not a good or service), the pursuit of happiness (not a good or service) and liberty (not a good or service). You do not have a right to education or healthcare, as these are services and you obtaining the right or entitlement to these would mean you have the authority to demand them from whoever can provide them to you, regardless of being able to compensate that person with their acceptance of said compensation. That is slavery. The definition of a slave is a person who is the legal property of another and forced to obey them. The definition of a right is a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something (implying at no cost when referring to a physical good or service). If you have a right to someone else's labor, they must obey you by law and are 100% a slave to you for all intents and purposes (minus the shackles and whipping). There's just no way around it, you can not advocate for having a right to someone else's labor without advocating for institutionalize slavery. If you want people to be able to obtain healthcare from the government (you're wrong) fine, but don't try to pass healthcare off as a "right" people are entitled to.

Hey, that sounds like a great idea, since slavery exist in the US at present, why not use them to teach and heal people. Thousands upon thousands of slaves are lawfully held by the US federal and state government in the prison-industrial complex, might aswell get them doing something which promotes the social good.

Train them as teachers and doctors, and offer a work for freedom program... Seems like the easiest way to kill two birds with one stone.

@Manwe Why do we have to keep getting lost in the semantics about defining the meaning of "right"? As I said earlier there are two definitions of a "right" and both are right! The forced labour stuff is silly. No one, anywhere is advocating extracting forced labour from medical professionals. All is being argued is that we as a wealthy society should be able to share in the cost of providing health care to all citizens (about $10K per year per person). That is what supporters of single payer call a "right". Nothing more.

@flash, propaganda, those with views which differ from your have been convinced by propaganda in service of the wealthy.

Now i don't think there is some conspiracy going on, but power can't exist without support. So it is necessary that successful power systems have a propaganda arm promoting their power.

So, again with a marxist slant, the lower classes are oppressed by employers profiting from their labour, and the upper class hold the majority of the power. As with most power systems, it acts to defend itself (or it wouldn't exist) and in a liberal society, where you can't use violence to control people, you must use words. Which is the propoganda... (which you might think is a good thing.... especially if you've ever lived in a system where the state does use violence).

So where you see people arguing that money should be concentrated in the hands of the few, and not used to support the poor, whether through education or healthcare, you are seeing the effect of propaganda.

They come up with silly justifications like 'forced labour' to distract those who disagree; but then we're all good at coming up with rationalization to justify whatever position we happen to take in a given situation... So that side of it, at least, is human nature, a psychological defence mechanism - to make us think we're always right.

*that last bit applies as much to marxists, or muslims or any other set of ideas... successful ideas tend to have a system for spreading themselves.

@orthaic,
Being that I see nothing of substance in your most recent regurgitation of silly talking points I am just going to move along. If you want to spew nonsense, you can do it to someone else.