A huge chunk of this money is going to Cuomo. But, naturally, the so-called "free traders" and "conservatives" have a higher calling, and that is neo-connery. Government shakedowns of banks are permissible if it's for the cause of Imperium.

Proof of Cuomo getting a cut of a federal fine?

Again, the bank broke federal law. So it was fined. It seems that you disagree with the underlying policy of sanctioning Sudan, Iran, and Cuba, which is a different thing than the fine being somehow improper.

I interpret your silence as an apology, and graciously accept.

Who is Cuomo? Rivers Cuomo out of Weezer? I love Weezer but what do they have to do with French banks?

Cuomo is the governor of New York State.

Ohh, ok. And what is your evidence that he is personally receiving money as a result of this action?

Cuomo's government. Is today pedantic day?

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21606279-french-bank-deserved-clobbering-americas-legal-system-looks-extortion

"Not only were BNP’s tormentors, such as Benjamin Lawsky, New York’s politically ambitious banking regulator, able more or less to dictate their terms, they also had an incentive to make the fine as big as possible because the agencies involved divvied up much of it among themselves. Mr Lawsky’s outfit gets $2 billion, four times its annual budget, which it will triumphantly deposit in New York state’s depleted coffers."

It wasn't because the trades were in dollars, but because the bank wanted to trade with US banks and Iran. If the bank didn't trade with the US then it could have done what it wanted. Iran for years insisted that transactions be in Euros instead of US dollars in order to get revenge on the Great Satan.

By "years" you mean since 2007, after Iran came under pressure for its nuclear program and set up its oil bourse, not because of hatred of the Great Satan. The dealings the bank did involving Iran involved a UAE based corporation that was owned by Iran. UAE trades in dollars. The vast majority of the bank's dealings that got them nuked by the US government were with Sudan anyway. Only half a billion had anything to do with Iran.

"Cuomo's government. Is today pedantic day?"

There is a huge difference between Governor Cuomo getting the money and the fine being divided by law in such a way that the government of New York getting a share.


"By "years" you mean since 2007..."

Not sure why years needs scare quotes. It's not 2008 any longer.


Seriously, what's your gripe here beyond that you happen to like the regimes effected by the law? States are allowed to do this sort of thing. It's not controversial.

Your silence, again, I interpret as an apology.

This is no big thing. The bank has an investment branch in NYC, so it falls under New York law and Federal Law. Thus, it falls under any US sanctions. Want to be immune from US sanctions and penalties? Don't do business with the United States. Simple as that.

If this were any other country you'd be furious.

But duly noted. That giant sucking noise you hear is the rest of the world quietly shifting their foreign exchange. The days of dollar imperium are numbered. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Whether the dollar endures as the global reserve currency is an entirely separate issue than the legitimacy of the fine here. Your dodge is still another apology, and I again accept. Relax, bro. It's okay.

"Want to be immune from US sanctions and penalties? Don't do business with the United States. Simple as that."

"But duly noted. That giant sucking noise you hear is the rest of the world quietly shifting their foreign exchange. The days of dollar imperium are numbered. Enjoy it while it lasts."

Indeed. The message here is 'don't do business with the Evil Empire unless you want to get screwed for violating one of the umpteen bajillion trading sanctions we have'. So much for 'free trade'. It should be no surprise America is sliding down the economic ladder with shortsighted money-grabbing tactics such as these. There's no reason for foreign capital to do business with America when it knows it's putting itself at risk like this. $2B may be chump change in the grand scheme of things, but it's not to the money-managers who need to be able to assure their customers of a guaranteed yearly or quarterly profit to stay in the game.

A French company that has no dealings with Americans has no obligation to follow this stupid American law. This isn't about American law, this is about using the dollar to blackmail people into following American policy.

http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/2014_07_10/US-accused-of-blackmail-over-BNP-Paribas-fine-and-French-Mistral-deal-6977/

Also this is just a cheap way to try and strongarm the French bank into not dealing with Russia. Failed miserably.

US bullying tactics keep striking out.

the dollar is the world currency till that changes, you can take ideaist views and stuff it, you piece of shit

"A French company that has no dealings with Americans has no obligation to follow this stupid American law."

Obviously it does.

It has billions of dollar from US clients, I don't know what you're talking about, Putin.

Also, speaking of economic ladder stuff, I can say that I'm very happy with where the US is at the moment. We're also the only thing keeping the world from going into recession the past year

Chinas growth has slowed by several percentage points, and will continue to slow below 6% by the end of the decade. South Africa has posted negative growth rates, and Brazil is dangerously close to it as well. Europe and Japan are stagnant. Of the advanced economies, the US is the brightest by far.

Congress can pass laws that apply extra-territorially. End of.

This a policy dispute you have, Putin33. Nothing about the fine is illegitimate.

Are foreign companies an easy risk free target for US politicians and lawyers? Here in Europe we certainly tread carefully around the likes of Amazon, Google, Starbucks etc. with their oh so clever company tax arrangements.

@ Putin33: "A French company that has no dealings with Americans has no obligation to follow this stupid American law."

If that were true, they would simply be at liberty to ignore the fine and not pay it.

"Chinas growth has slowed by several percentage points, and will continue to slow below 6% by the end of the decade. South Africa has posted negative growth rates, and Brazil is dangerously close to it as well. Europe and Japan are stagnant."

Your data are off. China just beat growth expectations at above 7.5%. Japan's economy is growing. Nobody is talking about a crisis in the EU anymore. Greece has quietly rebounded better than anybody expected. So keep on bragging about how great he US is doing, with a dysfunctional government willing to risk default at any moment the dollar is not a safe investment anymore.

"We're also the only thing keeping the world from going into recession the past year"

We're actually causing a lot of problems for the emerging economies, so I don't know what you're talking about. Brazil has been complaining about dollar manipulation by the US for a while now. US policies have had a severely negative impact on emerging economies and have been dragging down growth.

"It has billions of dollar from US clients, I don't know what you're talking about, Putin."

None of what it was fined for had anything to do with US clients.

"If that were true, they would simply be at liberty to ignore the fine and not pay it"

They're under no legal obligation but the US isn't a lawful state, it's a bandit state that brutalizes people with force just because they can. They continually fine foreign companies heavy sums but they never prosecute any US bank for running the global economy into the ground. It's a joke. Also say goodbye to your free trade agreement with the EU.

Putin, put all your money in gold. That's a great place for it.

The emerging markets are a pittance of what our market is. You can complain about monetary manipulation all you want, but it's still king dollar. All commodities are traded are traded I. US dollars. Even after the melt down in 08 the g20 did not get enough votes to create a basket of currency's for world monetary policy.

Shut up , Putin

Putin, I will please ask you to for once give in and admit you're wrong on an issue. I'm in touch with people who are part of the TTIP talks with the EU. The agreement will go through. Right now it is my *job* to forecast the debt levels of European governments for the Treasury department, so I would say yes, people are still very worried about the EU. China beat expectations of 7.5%, yes, but that growth rate is almost half of what is was a few years ago, and it will only continue to slow. There are many risks in its shadow banking system as well. Brazil has been complaining about the US playing unfair (and rightly so) for near 15 years now, and they won't stop anytime soon. And yes, the US's policies are largely to blame for EM performance, but that doesn't hide the fact that many EM's are headed into recession (South Africa) or stagflation (Brazil, Russia) right now. I was make a point on facts, not the cause.

Back to OP, I made the point of BNP Paribas having US clients not because they were the cause of the fines, but the offices in NYC that BNP has to service said clients establishes the court's legal jurisdiction over them.

I admit I'm wrong plenty, goldfinger. Few others seem to, but they enjoy preaching like they're great examples of humility.

You're not saying much that is relevant. What was the point of your speech about emerging market economies anyway? If it's related to the issue of whether they'll give up the dollar, it's neither here nor there. They might in fact give up the dollar precisely because of their struggles. Over 7.5% growth is still high growth considering the global economic conditions, poor demand from the EU and US, etc. The UAE just announced it is going to trade oil in Yuan, dropping the dollar.

The point about the EU is that it has turned the corner on the crisis and has stabilized. People were predicting that Greece would be kicked out and all sorts of doom and gloom scenarios. They haven't come to pass. If the rah-rah America types are hoping for a crack-up of the EU, it's not going to happen. And now that the EU is stable, they are going to look seriously at their dependence on the dollar, *and they already are doing so*.

"And yes, the US's policies are largely to blame for EM performance, but that doesn't hide the fact that many EM's are headed into recession (South Africa) or stagflation (Brazil, Russia) right now. I was make a point on facts, not the cause."

Sorry goldfinger, but you were claiming that the US was somehow propping up the global economy. Now you admit US policies have contributed to EM struggles.

"but the offices in NYC that BNP has to service said clients establishes the court's legal jurisdiction over them."

Sure, and such a tendentious claim to extra-territorial jurisdiction would not be accepted if the shoe was on the other foot, and you know it.

Well sorry to falsely accuse you then, Putin. I don't peruse through all the threads, so I only know from our interactions.

The UAE announced that deal back in 2012, and that was only that they would accept Yuan from China. It hasn't exactly shaken up the currency markets or the oil markets. The Yuan is still traded less than the Norwegian krone, and the fickleness of Beijing will scare institutions away for a long time.

I think you also mistake me for a rah-rah American type. The EU will not break up. I knew as much back in 2012. What will happen, I fear, is that they will slip into the "Japan model" I'll call it. Little to no growth and persistently low inflation. As it is now, the periphery countries are making a strong comeback, but core nations are faltering, especially France (whom I'm covering right now).

And 7.5% may seem like a lot compared to advanced economies, but the slowdown has been enough to send commodity markets crashing. Just check the price of iron. Yes, US monetary policy hit EM's hard in January, but the collapse in commodity prices due to China's slowdown has hit them harder. What I was referring to when I said "the US is the only thing keeping the global economy going" are several projected forecasts from economic firms I've seen (Oxford Economics, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley) which show the world going into recession should the US lapse into even a modest one.

Regardless, you're right in that I've effectively sidetracked this conversation beyond measure. Back on topic.

I will say yes and no to your charge that the US would not accept fines like this on a bank of ours - say Citibank. If it were a country such as Russia or China, we'd most likely blow them off. But were it Japan or the UK that did it, I would venture to say that the bank would go through and pay the fine. That's just a government reaction. No matter what, if the bank does business in that country, they'll pay the fine for business sake.