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President Eden (2427 D)
24 Nov 17 UTC
Gunboat musings
I have been playing a couple of gunboats lately and spectating a few more. None of these thoughts concern ongoing games, so I think this should be safe to post.
5 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (35 D)
24 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
ALL FRIDAYS MATTER
These "Black Friday" campaigners and their liberal tumblrfag supporters have got a nerve. How dare they say non-Black Friday's aren't important? I say ALL FRIDAYS MATTER.

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/11/24/white-nationalists-boycott-black-friday-claiming-fridays-matter/
4 replies
Open
brainbomb (474 D)
24 Nov 17 UTC
Brainbombs fall classic EOG
9 replies
Open
kanjk8 (0 D X)
24 Nov 17 UTC
slip ring with high protection price
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website2:http://www.rotaryjoint360.com/
4 replies
Open
President Eden (2427 D)
24 Nov 17 UTC
Automatic WebDiplomacy Poster for MANY +1s
website:http://www.webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=25958
3 replies
Open
Neoma (0 D X)
24 Nov 17 UTC
Where can I get a copy master degree?
We produce for all years master degree.
English Language replica novelty documents from all around the world.
3 replies
Open
kanjk8 (0 D X)
24 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
Pull door handles Made in China

A: The NYLOK® BLUE® PATCH is the world leading self-locking product from NYLOK USA and introduced by TSLG. The tough, resilient blue nylon patch element is permanently bonded onto the threads of a fastener to create positive resistance to vibration and loosening when engaging with mating threads.
website:http://www.slidingdoorshardware.com/door-handles/
1 reply
Open
Mercy (1662 D)
21 Nov 17 UTC
(+2)
Hypothetical new scoring system
I had an idea for a new kind of scoring system and am interested in feedback.
Mercy (1662 D)
21 Nov 17 UTC
(+3)
We are all familiar with the disadvantage of Draw-Size Scoring: it does not encourage the right type of play. In Draw-Size Scoring, a player that follows a 'carebear' strategy and achieves a draw with two equally big allies will be awarded more points than a player who wiped out everyone on its half of the board and got nearly a solo victory, but got stalemated by a combined effort of three players on the other side of the board. The only way the player who gets stalemated can increase its size of the pot is by moving its units back and allowing the other players to gang up on the smallest power, which is certainly not a fun aspect of the game.
Sum-Of-Squares Scoring does not have this disadvantages, but it does have its own problems. First off, it is difficult to quickly calculate how many points you would get rewarded under different endings of the game. Also, as a small power, your stakes in the game are extremely small and you have little incentive to put much more time effort in the game (but in Draw-Size Scoring, the small powers would be the ones ganged up on by everyone in the endgame, which is also not ideal). Lastly, in Sum-Of-Squares Scoring, there is almost never a proper time to end the game. Almost always, some player can gain by grabbing centers of some other player. As a consequence, Sum-Of-Squares Scoring games often end at quite random times, sometimes ending way too early and sometimes going on for a long time.

I have tried to think of a scoring system that doesn’t have any of the disadvantages that the other two scoring systems have, and I think that I have found such a system.

In this scoring system, there are two draw options players can vote for. If everyone votes for Draw option 1, then the game ends in a draw and players get points according to Draw-Size Scoring. If everyone votes for Draw option 2, then the game end in a draw, the player with the most supply centers on the board gets half the pot and the other half of the pot is divided between the other participants of the draw. The second Draw option is meant to be used when the game is in a stalemate.

Under this scoring system, a player is rewarded if he or she tries for a solo, because if this results in the game getting into a stalemate, that player at least gets awarded half the pot. Also, since this player in such a situation doesn’t care pointwise how many players are alive at the other side of the stalemate line, this player will not cooperate in an effort to gang up on the smallest power to decrease the pot size. Thus, this alternative scoring system does not have the disadvantages that Draw-Size Scoring has.

Under this scoring system, it is quite easy to calculate how many points you would be rewarded in different situations. Also, as a small power, you can always gain a decent size of the pot if you make it to the draw, which incentivizes small powers to keep putting effort into the game. Lastly, under this scoring system, there are logical moments in the game where one should draw – namely in a stalemate or if all participants agree to choose Draw option 1, which will likely happen right after an elimination. Thus, this alternative scoring system neither has the disadvantages of Sum-Of-Squares Scoring.

There are a few possible new disadvantages of this new scoring system, though.

One disadvantage can be that players will disagree about what draw option to use. For example, it could happen that a game is stalemated and the biggest power on the board has a Draw vote 2 up, while the rest of the board is voting for Draw vote 1, and everybody refuses to vote for anything else. To prevent such situation from occurring, it must be made clear in which situations which Draw vote is appropriate. There are ways to do this. In vDiplomacy, before the start of a nonanonymous Choose Your Country game, there is always a standard message in global chat saying ‘Negotiations before the start of the game are not allowed’. Similarly, under this scoring system, there could be a standard global message saying ‘This is a '...'-Scoring game. Remember to vote 'Draw option 2' if the game is in a stalemate position’ or something similar, so that all players are on the same line. Of course, mods can always force draw games, like they do now too sometimes.

One effect that this scoring system would have is that, when it is clear that no one can solo, some players will start attacking everybody anyway, purely in order to become the biggest power and get into a stalemate to get half of the pot. Something similar now happens in Sum-Of-Squares Scoring games. Dependent on your preferred gamestyle, this could be a disadvantage, but maybe some players will instead like it.

One disadvantage is that it can be confusing to have two draw options. To that I agree. The question is whether this outweighs the advantages.

Another disadvantage is that it would cost some programming effort to implement another voting option, I reckon.


What do you think of this scoring system?
Octavious (1717 D)
21 Nov 17 UTC
(+5)
It's an intriguing idea. I'll look at it more closely later. Coincidentally I've also got a pet scoring system I've been working on.

Solo: Score 1
Don't Solo: Score 0
CD: Score -10

I'm a little worried that including the stuff about Civil Disorders over-complicates it, but I feel it's important.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
21 Nov 17 UTC
What a coincidence I’ve been toying with one as well. lol. I won’t take your thunder however. I like the idea of choice but I feel a big issue is the anount of Moderator complaints that will say “so so noob is claiming this ain’t stalemated but it is and we all want to draw 1, but he has draw 2 up.”
Peregrine Falcon (2201 D (B))
21 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
Perhaps I misunderstand, but why have two draw options? What's wrong with just having 'Draw 2'? It incentivises playing to solos or stalemate lines, which I don't see as an issue.
2ndWhiteLine (3375 D (B))
21 Nov 17 UTC
"it does not encourage the right type of play."

Why do we need to encourage a certain type of play?
Peregrine Falcon (2201 D (B))
21 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
The objectives of a game is an integral part. Can you imagine playing chess without having the goal to take your opponent's king?
I have played Diplomacy on this site since 2008. I remember playing the Survivors Win scenario and have played Draw Size Scoring and Sum of Squares Scoring.

Isn't your new scoring system Mercy 1121 (where the leading player with the most Supply Centers get half the pot) similar to the end result of the Survivors Win Scenario? I am pretty sure under that scenario the points were split that way (If a more senior Diplomacy player wants to correct me on Survivors Win feel free)

Perhaps the 2 Draw vote options would be a solution for resolving draws? What I am confused about is if this is leading to a whole new "point scoring system to add to the Draw and Sum of Square Scoring Scenarios maybe it could be tailored towards a game scoring system that encourages Solo Wins?
SkiingCougar (953 D)
21 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
bring back PPSC ;)
SkiingCougar (953 D)
21 Nov 17 UTC
Properly tho, I really like this idea. Im not sure about having two options for draw in one game, for the reasons said above. However maybe we just adopt the second draw style. I know everyone says less options are better in game creation, but I don't think it would be a bad addition at all. Having said I dont like the two draw buttons I can see why its helpful, having 3 countries all relatively even and then one taking half the pot seems very unfair.

The only fix I can provide that has one draw button is coding in a bit which says, if all country has less than 15(?) supply centres it reverts to DSS and above that its probably a stalemate so automatically kick in Biggest drawer takes 1/2 scoring? (also what do we call it?) this would mean we could completely replace it with DSS and not have another option, but it would take extra coding and the way you play would change halfway through, which could be odd
chluke (8515 D (G))
22 Nov 17 UTC
I would never vote Draw2 option, unless I left myself easy to eliminate next.

@Mercy, I think you're missing one of the most fun and challenging parts of Diplomacy -- if you can't solo, make sure that you are integral to the draw and that every other non-solo player will lose if they try to eliminate you. (Again, the gunboat Biggest Game of All Time that recently ended, just had a variety of serious examples of that concept.)
Bob Al Hubob (1242 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
I disagree with all of the above. Let's have some points for flair, artistic impression and unnecessarily convoluted convoys.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
I think the first step to a better scoring system is the removal of “points” and instead go to an XP system with levels and with each level you “unlock” the ability to join more games. Once we drop the idea of points we can stop worrying about “pots” and win-conditions as the incentive to do well will be for the XP. You should theoretically do what will earn you more XP or what will guarantee more XP.

As an example if each game was worth 100XP
Solo= 100XP
Draw=[ (100 - V)/ D ] + S
Defeat/Survival = 0XP
NMR = -1XP
CD = -10XP

V= Supply Centers available in variant
D= Draw Size
S= Supply Centers

If you play a classic game and end in a 3 way draw:
8 SC England - 30 XP
9 SC France - 31 XP
17 SC Turkey - 39 XP

Now Turkey clearly has more incentive to try for the solo as he’d receive 100 XP ; but likewise both England and France has incentive to work together to form a stalemate as if Turkey solos then both of them receive 0XP.

This is simple and it easier to understand for gamers new to the hobby. It also adds incentive not to CD or NMR as the effect of a CD can completely negate the work of 3 or 4 draws. This system would have a natural neutering effect on unreliable players keeping them in the lowest tiers so long as they are unreliable. Meaning instead of restricting games by RR players can restrict games by XP level for a similar effect. I’ve actually worked on this quite a lot but never really intended to bring it up as i know how hard it is to institute change.

CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
Recommended levels and their rewards:
Level 1 “Intern” - 3 games at any given time
Level 2 “Secretary” - 5 games at any given time
Level 3 “Assistant” - 7 games at any given time
Level 4 “Officer - 10 games at any given time
Level 5 “Diplomat” - Unlimited Games
Level 6 “Governor”
Level 7 “General”
Level 8 “Senator”
Level 9 “President”
Level 10 “Monarch”
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
Through testing we can figure out the XP needed to unlock levels. But I’d recommend a level to level increase of a factor of 3 until Level 5 and doubles there after.
So if:
Level 2 is unlocked at 100 XP
Level 3 is at 300XP
Level 4 is at 900XP
Level 5 is at 2700XP
Level 6 is at 5400XP
Level 7 is at 10800XP
Level 8 is at 21600XP
Level 9 is at 43200XP
Level 10 is at 86400XP

It’s a steep climb to Level 10 but that’s intentional as so people have things to work toward after level 5, however reaching level 2 shouldn’t be too difficult and reaching level 3 should be the sign of a player eager to learn. Levels 4 and 5 should be reliable players with enough experience to make a game good, and levels there after should be the longest term players with the most experience and knowledge.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
Variants can be assigned less value. For example:
1v1 can have 10XP available per game.
Other Variants could have less or more depending on how testing goes.
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
To be honest I'm not sure I like the XP idea. Theres really no difference between it and the D The way the XP is handed out sounds exactly like Sum Of Squares
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
Sorry, that's a bit awkward the rest didn't send
To be honest I'm not sure I like the XP idea.
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
Crap I rly cannot do this... My post reply button dissapears after 4 lines. I've lost the rest of my message so I'll try again
Mercy (1662 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
@ Peregrine Falcon
Draw option 1 exists because, in case all the surviving players are roughly equal in strength and want to draw the game, I want the players to have the option to end the game in a draw in which they all get roughly the same number of points. That seems like the most logical pot distribution if any player can be defeated by the others, and on top of that, if only Draw option 2 existed, the surviving players could get into a stupid, endless war about who will get the biggest share. Having only Draw option 2 would be strictly worse than SoS-scoring, I think.

@2ndWhiteLine
Because most players enjoy certain types of play more than others. It remains a subjective issue what is the 'right' type of play though.

@Commander Thomas
No, under Survivors-Win Scoring, players got points proportional to their number of supply centers in case someone won. Though I did not explicitly state it, in my hypothetical scoring system, if there is a winner, that winner gets the whole pot.

@SkiingCougar
It's funny, because I thought of exactly the same fix as you did. In fact, I thought about your fix idea before I came up with the scoring system discussed in this thread. I ultimately decided to write about the latter rather than the former scoring system because the latter is easier extendable to other variants.

@chluke
I think you have misunderstood my idea..?
Draw option 2 is meant to be used when the game is stalemated.
''@Mercy, I think you're missing one of the most fun and challenging parts of Diplomacy -- if you can't solo, make sure that you are integral to the draw and that every other non-solo player will lose if they try to eliminate you. (Again, the gunboat Biggest Game of All Time that recently ended, just had a variety of serious examples of that concept.)''
No, I am precisely NOT missing that. In fact, the hypothetical scoring system I proposed works BEST for that part of the game (better than both DSS and SoS). Let me use the same example as you do to illustrate this: The Biggest Game of All Time. In this game, both France and Russia tried to become an integral part of the stalemate line. Yet, it didn't really help them, did it? Ultimately they got eliminated. But if the game was played under my hypothetical scoring system, they would NOT have been eliminated. Let me explain.
Because the game was played under DSS, Germany had an incentive to defeat France and Russia. This is why Germany, at the moment he knew he couldn't win, retreated his troops to allow Italy to finish off France. If it would have been my hypothetical scoring system, Germany would not have had this incentive and would not have put effort in the elimination of France. Also, Russia knew that Germany had an incentive to get him eliminated by Turkey and Austria and thus knew that his situation was very dire. This is why he panicked, almost threw the game to Germany and got eliminated. Had the game been under my hypothetical scoring system, Russia would have felt way more secure and probably would not have been eliminated, because he was part of the stalemate line. Had the game been under my hypothetical scoring system, assuming the early and mid-game played out the same, Germany would have gotten half of the pot, and the other players, except England, each 1/12th.
Under SoS, both France and Russia wouldn't have been eliminated either, but in this case they would have gotten almost no points.
I can even go further: if the game was played under my hypothetical scoring system, Germany would have played the midgame differently. He would have been less determined to fully eliminated England and would have been less hesitant to stab Italy and go for the solo a bit earlier. I know this, because I read Germanys EoG journal and read how he was influenced by the scoring system.

@CommanderByron
Intriguing idea. I don't think I like it though. There is, like SkiingCougar says, little difference with the current point system - the only real difference that I see is that you don't want to penalize losses. Climbing up high in the XP ladder would be best achieved by joining as many games as possible and as soon as you are losing in a game, make sure you are eliminated as quickly as possible so that you can spend more of your effort in the games where you have a decent chance of winning something.
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
From personal experience playing on vDip not allowing new players to play as many games as they want gets very tedious. depending on the type of person you are, some may be happy to play 1 at a time and others may want to take on 20 (swordsman for example) not allowing this could very easily turn players away. I do see how it would do the job of reducing NMR's however I would prefer to have a larger player base in the future, and NMR's now. The XP system does not in anyway fix the problem that mercy pointed out and is basically a fancy SoS. The other thing I enjoy about the points system is that you have something to lose. As much as this is bad in the real world the fact your 'Gambling' makes it far more interesting for me
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
...and to think years ago I was advocating for PPSC...
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
Sorry, Didn't mean to shit on your idea without explaining myself. also finally changed off my phone to a computer so could actually send a long message
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
I like you Mercy :)
RoganJosh (3060 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
Why not just make the allocation of points part of the diplomacy? Allow players to suggest how to split the points.

Or, let everyone condition their draw vote the number of points they want, by default 100% each. As soon as the total demand is less than or equal to 100%, the game ends with a draw and points are allocated accordingly. Demanding 0% counts as a resignation.
Mercy (1662 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
^ That would result in one hell of an argument if the game is in a stalemate.

And I agree with SkiingCougar.
RoganJosh (3060 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
Yes :)

Actually - I think you will get that type of argument as soon as you give players a choice at all.

I think you'll see a lot of games which are in a "stalemate" but one player is refusing to vote. Which means that our beloved Mods will have to go around and evaluate games. That could increase the workload of the Mods quite significantly.

Like---the point of this site as compared to, e.g., dip2000 is that it is automated.
Foxcastle (195 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
Or, building on letting players negotiate the split: let the largest country propose how points should be allocated in the draw, and then the remaining players can vote to reject or accept the allocation. If everyone accepts, the draw is declared; if not, a new proposal can be offered in the next turn.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
A new scoring system should:
-Be consistent across all possible variants
-Be simple to implement and understand
-Solve more than one problem (I.e RR, NMR rates, scoring)
-Encourage completion of games and competitive play.


My XP system does all of that.

In response to the idea that limited game entries will hurt prospective players interest. Consider for a moment the alternative. A new player joins 20 5PT games and never logs back in. He just caused a CD in 20 games. Now that ONE player who will never return has just ruined games for up to 120 players. If any of those players were new and actually interested their experience could be harmed to such a degree that they stop playing. The argument that by limiting initial game entires we’d lose players is baseless and doesn’t correlate to the reality. Especially when if properly designed a XP system would limit the initial play of a player but make the threshold for more games very achievable.

Further, by including NMR and CD in the XP system as negatives toward a players progress, we’d see substantially less NMRing and CDing.

Finally, the suggestion that players would just let themselves be eliminated so they could quickly join other games is wrong. While some people may do this the reality is that in our current system people check out when they are losing because they can invest TIME elsewhere. However now with no CLEAR punishment for NMR and CD that usually results in late game CDs. In my system you’d atleast get support holds and maybe some last ditch effort play. Regardless the game has more losers than winners and that’s a hard sell to prospective players who live in the age of Call Of Duty immediate gratification. The idea that we should design a system that gives everyone a piece and gives players choice in how to share their potential winnings is not in accordance with this cutthroat game.

The XP system is the future.
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
I think I’ll call the system XDS1
Deeply_Dippy (388 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
A while back I suggested a system whereby a draw could be forced by majority vote (rather than unanimity) - which would get around the unreasonable stick-in-the-mud problem - and with points shared by negotiation.

The main caveat was that the game leader (by SC) had to be the one offering terms.

The opportunity to upset people would be immense - but great fun!
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
@Deeply Dippy Imagine someone is about to solo, all the other countries have to do is vote draw. there will never be another solo on this site.

This could be implemented for pause though
Deeply_Dippy (388 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
I repeat:

The main caveat was that the game leader (by SC) had to be the one offering terms.

If you're about to solo, why would you offer?

But, if you're facing a stalemate, you can negotiate a draw that earns you a better share of the points than you would otherwise get by eliminating the minor powers.

You only have to negotiate with enough parties to get a majority.

SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
@CB I do think that your point of reducing a CD is an interesting one, however I do not think we need to go through the huge coding change of addding in an XP system to do this. we just implement the same thing into the D system. if you NMR you lose one point, if you CD you lose 10. Problem solved, that means theres a very big incentive to stay in the game. once people get up to 1000 points where 10 points isnt much, they're not likely to NMR anyway.

Yes, I do see your point about 20 5 point games however, I think the NMR problem could be fixed another way that isnt changing the entire system this website is based on. FIrstly getting more people to take over games. one simple fix is to not include 'taken over games' in your GR rating. This is the main point that stopped me taking over games. Another can be that if you NMR in the first or second phase you face immediate CD.

My most preferred fix however is this (in combination with the ones listed above):

After someone CD's the game does not process, instead going into a 'grace' period for however long the phase length is in that game. during this phase length people can join the game and still input moves so that one country only ever misses out on 0-1 turns at a time. esecially during the first phase this is important
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
So your saying the leader of the game can change what everyone gets when theres a stalemate?

All this means is that the leader can take 99% of the pot in a stalemate while everyone else gets 1D and eventually they will say yes because its better than nothing. futhermore it would be incredibly difficult to code into the site and cause arguments and the stalemate could be stretched out for years. it's better to have everyone know what theyre playing for in the first place, it means arguments like that don't happen
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
anyway @CB this would have the bonus effect of reducing NMR's, and increasing take overs, while keeping new players interested in the site, and having a fair scoring system. Sounds good to me :)
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
Also perhaps making the default tab 'Joinable' when you click on the games tab could encourage take overs
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
reducing the effect of NMR's* also it would be good to have a little bit in the rules explaining the dramatic effect of an NMR
CommanderByron (869 D (S))
22 Nov 17 UTC
But that relies on people taking over CD positions which while important will not “reduce” the number of NMRs and CDs it just increases the number of takeovers.
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
As I said when correcting myself it reduces the effect of CD's as they wont be over as many turns. also would increasing the number of take overs be a bad thing?
SkiingCougar (953 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
also I think implementing this into other variants could be done so
that you must have 3/7 of the board, this makes the classic game and ancient med 15 before you get half the pot (Let me work it out for the rest quickly)
SkiingCougar (953 D)
23 Nov 17 UTC
37 for world, 27 for modern and 25 for American Empire
SkiingCougar (953 D)
23 Nov 17 UTC
bump?
orathaic (1009 D (B))
24 Nov 17 UTC
Bumo!
SkiingCougar (953 D)
24 Nov 17 UTC
@CB anything to add?


44 replies
damo666 (82 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
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3 replies
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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Fluminator (496 D)
22 Nov 17 UTC
Net Neutrality
I don't understand how this is even a debate or how anyone could think removing it is a good idea. Anyone able to enlighten me?
31 replies
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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brainbomb (474 D)
23 Nov 17 UTC
(+1)
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49 replies
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President Eden (2427 D)
23 Nov 17 UTC
(+3)
I am really sick of seeing my people's holidays turned into commercial degeneracy.
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The mood gets utterly ruined when I see that "Black Friday Christmas sales" are beginning at 5:00 PM on Thanksgiving. It's not even Friday! And why does "Black Friday" even exist?
29 replies
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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24 Nov 17 UTC
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24 Nov 17 UTC
wood usb drive box manufacturers
Please be free to wholesale the fist class products with our company - a professional manufacturer and supplier in this field.wood usb drive box manufacturers
website:http://www.southern-technology.com/usb-drive/wood-usb-drive/
0 replies
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bvhgfh5 (0 D X)
24 Nov 17 UTC
China Electric Minibus Air Conditioner

website:http://www.songzac.com/new-energy-bus-air-conditioning/electric-minibus-air-conditioning/
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bvhgfh5 (0 D X)
24 Nov 17 UTC
stainless steel angle factory
Should you are interested in our products, take action to buy or wholesale the quality polished 304/316 stainless steel angle for sale in stock from our factory. Shaanxi Rehi, as one of the leading manufacturers and suppliers in China, has various sizes of products with competitive price at your choice.stainless steel angle factory
website:http://www.songalloy.com/stainless-steel-bar/stainless-steel-angle-bar/
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bvhgfh5 (0 D X)
24 Nov 17 UTC
single spiral cooking plate
Our product is delivered to more than 40 countries and regions, mainly in North America and Europe. Currently we are exploring the Middle-east, south-east Asia and Africa market. We welcome any new business partners to join us and look forward to cooperating with you for mutual benefits in the future.single spiral cooking plate
website:http://www.songjingelec.com/
0 replies
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Valis2501 (2057 D (G))
23 Nov 17 UTC
(+3)
Happy Thanksgiving everyone
-Valis
12 replies
Open
WyattS14 (44 D (B))
23 Nov 17 UTC
An idea for a better version of the movie Passengers.
We're talking horror and moral dilemma, read below (Spoilers!)
6 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (35 D)
17 Nov 17 UTC
(+4)
The best thing about HeroQuest
Is this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx8sl2uC46A
11 replies
Open
brainbomb (474 D)
19 Nov 17 UTC
Inspirational Females
Here is a thread to post inspirational stories about women who have positively impacted your life.
316 replies
Open
brainbomb (474 D)
23 Nov 17 UTC
(+2)
Epic Forum Story Time
Rules, each person add a word. We create a giant story. So for example I say: Jim. The next person says Jim was. The next person says Jim was Old.
37 replies
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