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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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WyattS14 (100 D)
20 Jan 17 UTC
Does math Exist, or is it really JUST an idea?
I found
70 replies
Open
CAPT Brad (2624 D (B))
19 Dec 16 UTC
(+1)
Why I Love The Live Gunboat Games
I have the PC game of Diplomacy and played it to victory pretty much everytime; the few losses from the beginning as i was learning.
36 replies
Open
Chumbles (959 D (S))
22 Jan 17 UTC
Only one needed: gunboat, ancmed
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=189485
1 reply
Open
Valis2501 (2525 D (G))
19 Jan 17 UTC
F2F Tournament in MA, USA
As above, below
10 replies
Open
Peregrine Falcon (1531 D (B))
21 Jan 17 UTC
Friends Game
I'm looking for three more people to join me and three friends for a game. We'll keep the meta gaming to a minimum. Post here or message me if you're interested.
7 replies
Open
King Of Avalon (10 D X)
20 Jan 17 UTC
Hello i am new
How do i play i need help
9 replies
Open
oliveskin (100 D X)
20 Jan 17 UTC
Canceling CDs in live games
Thoughts to follow (my phone isn't letting me both type everything and post as well lol)
12 replies
Open
Halls of Mandos (644 D)
19 Jan 17 UTC
Another clarifying thread...
A unit can cut support if it itself is only tapped as well, but it does NOT cut support if it is dislodged by two completely different units, right?
5 replies
Open
indigo93 (100 D)
19 Jan 17 UTC
Issue with Denmark Capture
Game id 189248

I am Germany and had has a unit in Denmark at multiple points this game, yet the map color has not changed and I gave not
10 replies
Open
pastoralan (100 D)
18 Jan 17 UTC
Convoy confusion
Can a fleet convoy an army and also provide support to another unit?

Paraphrase: have I been playing this game wrong for the last 20 years?
12 replies
Open
fourofswords (453 D)
15 Jan 17 UTC
new world 901
Why isn't New World 901 on the list of games that can be created?
16 replies
Open
slypups (1620 D)
14 Jan 17 UTC
Worst possible 1v1 matchup
What would be the most unbalanced 1v1 matchup possible on the Classic board? I could see England v Russia being awful for England, especially with Russia enjoying 4 builds/turn.
32 replies
Open
Ezio (708 D Mod)
18 Jan 17 UTC
Highest stakes live game
What is the highest stakes live game ever on the site?
51 replies
Open
Ezio (708 D Mod)
15 Jan 17 UTC
Ethics
If someone admits they only want to ally with you for meta reasons, are you ethically forced to attack them?
22 replies
Open
brainbomb (474 D)
17 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
Selena Gomez vs. a Hot platter of Hush puppies and Fried Catfish
Is there an afterlife? Or is there reall just a giant reality tv orb that floats above Ariana Grande's feet.
30 replies
Open
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
Scoring System Proposal
I don't know if this has been suggested but:
1. If there is a winner they get the whole pot
2. If there is a draw, it's always a seven* way draw regardless of elimination.
*Or however many
Out of curiosity, what goal would such a scoring system serve? Simply to force efforts to solo?
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Yes. It always seems like players have no interest in winning. I say to someone "we should work to stop this person from soloing". And that person says to me "nah, they're not going to solo. I'm doing a four way draw with them and two others". And they usually end up being right. People who are close to victory don't even make an attempt to get it.
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
In my system, it is always in your interest to try to solo. There is no risk.
CommanderByron (569 D Mod (S))
13 Jan 17 UTC
But it also removes any incentive to play once a clear winner is found. If I'm a 12 center England and there's a 16 center turkey and a 5 center France. Why should 5 center France keep playing?? Neither I nor turkey will agree to a draw now and since turkey will hit 18 first (especially if France just gives up) then what incentive do I have?? Pretty much you solved the non-issue of people playing strategically by creating the problem of mass late game CDs from pivotal powers on a possible stalemate line. Not to mention the idea that Austria eliminated by 1903 will share equally with a 2 center Germany who through excellent press and diplomacy became a indisposable part of a stalemate line forcing a 2 way draw.
bo_sox48 (4238 D Mod (G))
13 Jan 17 UTC
It sounds to me like you want a no-draw game.
CommanderByron (569 D Mod (S))
13 Jan 17 UTC
That last part should say 3 way draw
CommanderByron (569 D Mod (S))
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
I think the art of this game is the subjectiveness of it. You may see a clear oath to victory but that person who think threw away their game for a draw or the person who is blind and doesn't see the eminent stab is all part of the game. Unfortunately you end up on the wrong side of that game and lose. This isn't chess it doesn't come don to pure strategy and move sets. This is diplomacy, and while strategy is key; your press and the way you use your opponents personalities against them is more important. I'd suggest playing gunboat. Those tend to end in solos. Or try chess. Or checkers. Or go fish.
CommanderByron (569 D Mod (S))
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
Maybe the problem here isn't that other players don't want to win and thus ally up to get the easy draw. Maybe your press is shit and you can't ever get someone to commit to being your ally. Thoughts.?
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
@CommanderByron

I don't see why France wouldn't keep playing. It's in their interest to prevent anyone else from soloing. That way they either squeak out a comeback solo or get a draw. Why would they quit in this system but not the others?
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
@CommanderByron

Really? You going to start with the ad hominems?
CommanderByron (569 D Mod (S))
13 Jan 17 UTC
Because the chances of a comeback victory are near to none. Helping get the solo implies all their effort is rewarded with their exact bet. (No gain even for the effort) and while some outstanding players would see it through to the end; if you are right about how incompetent the players are here then wouldn't they just give up when the going got tough?
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
@bo_sox48

Essentially. I realize a lot of people here put a lot of value in drawing but for me the game is about winning. I find myself in situations where people basically say "draw with us or we will eliminate you and then draw". That's not to say there isn't a point where a game has reached a stalemate, there is. But in the games I play it usually ends before that point.
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+3)
Absolutely horrible idea.

This game simply doesn't work if there's not some form of escalation levels of reward, you need to be able to dangle a carrot to get people to do what you want to do or else you'll never never never see solos occur. Stalemating a game leader really is not that hard and as soon as one player pulls ahead of everybody else by 3-4 SCs that's all your going to see. I find it frustrating enough that we don't give enough incentive towards smaller draw sizes that we get the "draw is a draw" mentality that causes many unambitious/uncreative players to get into stalemate mode barely into the mid-game stage.

I completely agree that solos should be everybody's goal in a game and a definitive "winner" in any game would be awesome, but this just isn't the way.

Possible alternative options:
- Find a better way to structure the reward system where the gamble to try for more is more the risk
- Find an alternative way to decide the "winner" in cases of draws (player with most SC's, vote for winner among top 3, whatever)
- Introduce a map without stalemate lines
- Introduce a monkey wrench element into the game to keep things going whenever a stalemate occurs (i.e. every remaining country gets one unit randomly destroyed for rebuild).

They're not all gems, but you get the idea.
CommanderByron (569 D Mod (S))
13 Jan 17 UTC
Sorry I'm a bit tired and cranky probably shouldn't of been so pissy. I just really don't see where this variant achieves anything honestly ideal. Solos are not the only means of ending the game. Even the official rules include a means of drawing. It is a part of the game so fundamental that this variant, which in essence removes draws, might as well remove the ability to support other units. Beyond that it isn't really fair to reward a 1902-03 elimination the same as a 1909 or 1914 small power included in the draw or even a 17-17 draw. Why should the other 5 players be rewarded when two players hit 17-17 and draw because they have each other pinned?
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Not to mention, many a solo has occurred based on personal vendettas of trying to screw somebody else out of a place in a draw who already screwed them out of their shot in the draw. You completely wipe out this aspect under this proposal.
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
@CommanderByron

I'm not saying players are incompetent. I'm just saying they "play it safe" as they say to me and go for the guaranteed points.

I still don't see why the France player would quit. I mean, if they don't care about their initial bet why would they care in any scoring system?
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Also, quick note:

This would be in addition to the current system and would be for players who want a game that's focused on soloing.
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+2)
"It's cool, it'll just be an option so people can just choose if they want it or not so no harm in having it."

Sincerely,

Every kooky feature proposal ever made on this forum
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
@VillageIdiot

It would be a different kind of game for sure. Offering a 4-way draw wouldn't work. But I don't see why that's a problem

Regarding your point about stalemates: do you think this game mode would end with more draws? I think it would result in more actual stalemates but fewer draws (this is because of the high number of artificial draws)

This mode would also be affected by personal vendettas just like the others.
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
"Every kooky feature proposal ever made on this forum"

I imagine some of the kooky proposals were about completely replacing an old feature. So you're wrong there. And some of the non-kooky proposals were additions that didn't require elimination of old features. So...
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Stalemates are draws, and yes i think that's 99% of what you'd see in this scenario which is completely counter-productive for what you're going for.

Personal vendettas would be awfully counter-intuitive. Most the time you see somebody king make it's because they're all but certain to be eliminated and want somebody they hate to feel that same pain because their ego dictates that other person isn't worthy of doing better then they did. But here, nobody is every really eliminated or gets a better result unless it ends in a solo, otherwise everybody is in the same boat.

We can't just overload on additions simply because they're an option. Setting aside the development time it requires there's other considerations in play as well. Too many differing scoring 'options' completely waters down the legitimacy of any rating system and spreading out the community into too many niche game types completely dilutes the player base to the point you start seeing the same 20 guys rotating through their favourite configuration. We need to keep some type of standardization and quality line in place here. I've seen it done elsewhere where that's not the case and the site suffers for it.
MajorMitchell (984 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
I can't see how rewarding defeated nations equally with surviving nations where there is a draw has any merit. It's just another form of WTA, of which type we have two already.
But I read the same old issues being thrashed about, games becoming every remaining player after the initial culling out, trying to stop a solo and force a draw..which ends in a stalemate, why, because with WTA scoring systems there is no incentive for anyone to break ranks in the stalemate apart from certain players love of a double cross to create anarchy & opportunity, which usually ends in the solo happening.

VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Exactly MM.

I cut my teeth over at PlayDip, and while their scoring system has it's own flaws there was no arguing that it properly incentivized playing for best possible results. If i was playing in a game with players that statistically i should have at least gotten a 3WD out of then i would actually lose points if the game ended in a 4WD or less. Eventually i got to the ranking where depending on the players i was against I had to solo or would get penalized for it.
slypups (1620 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
I don't mind the scoring system you propose, but I would never play it. I'm one of those players you don't like playing with because I enjoy going for cooperative outcomes and the repeat player game theory aspects of non-anon games.
ghug (4049 D Mod (B))
13 Jan 17 UTC
@VI, GR does that pretty well here, and points aren't really treated as or even intended to be a meaningful scoring system as much as an admittedly ineffective means on limiting how much people can play.

You should try playing some sum of squares. I think it does a better job encouraging solos.
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Solo encouragement is less the issue, it's more "best possible result" encouragement. I get frustrated by the "a 6WD is just as good as a 3WD" mentality that causes many a game to be sold short.

You're quite right i'm fairly content with the way GR generally handles things for the most part, it's just not as incentivized in this one area which i think the other system does better. It has flaws in other areas for certain, but there probably is some best of both systems that could be devised if somebody put the thought towards it.
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
@VI

I don't think it would be draws 99% of the time. Keep in mind that the current two systems are WTA and still result in solos. In a game theory situation with perfectly rational players every game would end in a stalemate but these are people and so I think you would see many solos.

Personal vendettas would still work. A player who is angry for being stabbed and has has a very small chance of winning may decide to help someone win. They may lose out on 1/7 of the pot but if they are angry enough their initial bet may be less important to them than revenge.

@MM

It seems like your issue is more about WTA and less about my specific implementation.

@slypups

"repeat player game theory aspects of non-anon games"

How would this be eliminated in my system? If, in game 1, player A stabs every other turn and player B proves to be very trustworthy then players will have these expectations of them in game 2.
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Here's an example of a game I played where there was obvious disinterest in getting the solo:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=169559
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
Carebear games most definitely happen on occasion, i actually don't generally mind that people have different game philosophies going into games because it's the illusion that a soloist may be one of these people that often helps get them close enough to the line to be able to take it.

Diplomacy really isn't that effective in a black and white format, it needs these shades of grey to push it forward. The game leader needs to have a means to deal with people in lessor situations and that's very difficult to do in an all-or-nothing (let's face it, a 7WD is as good as nothing) type format. Also not sure i'd like the direction the game would go if people could suddenly make a bunch of suicide plays in order to advance the stop-the-leader attempt. This really starts to seriously stack the deck against solo candidates.
Merirosvo (302 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
My view is that a draw is always a seven way loss. I realize others put a lot of value into draws but I don't.

VI, as I said, it's a different kind of game. That said, I don't think soloing will be more difficult in this system than the others. They're all WTA so there's no reason for players to be less careful about preventing a solo in the other systems.

I have plenty of examples of games where players weren't interested in soloing.

Here's another super obvious one:

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=183396

For the following one, there was a point where France could have easily taken Warsaw but didn't; opting instead for a draw.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=15505
slypups (1620 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
@Merirosovo - your system pretty much guarantees stabs, just a matter of when. So hard to identify cooperative players from stabbers if everyone is forced to become a stabber to have any chance.
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
"My view is that a draw is always a seven way loss. I realize others put a lot of value into draws but I don't."

Yes, great sentiment but still a flawed solution.

Let me show you some examples:

In this game: http://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=168928&turn=13

Germany is clearly in the lead and only getting stronger. Under your premise everybody most likely just drops what they're doing and stalemates but not necessarily the case under a regular situation because perhaps Russia is worried he'll get downsized or maybe Turkey and Italy think they can force a 3WD if they let things go on long enough for England and Russia to get eliminated and Russia and Turkey can't get along.

Or in this game: http://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=160111&largemap=on&turn=9

The only chance this has of going onto a solo is if Italy, knowing he's being pushed out decides to king-make, under 'everybody gets a participation award' mentality this game stalemates in a couple turns.

In this game: http://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=80849&largemap=on&turn=12

The solo opportunity presented itself only because Turkey and Russia both knew if there was to be a draw they needed to step on each others heads to keep their spot in it causing enough instability for a solo to occur.

This game http://webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=67632&largemap=on&turn=19 was soloed because the writing was on the wall for France so didn't bother even defending Munich. Had he just bounced Munich, despite still being eliminated the next year the rest could have taken Tunis back and stalemated. He'd get the shared win anyways, but since that wasn't an option he didn't care.

So there's a lot of solo paths here you cut off by introducing this, far as i can tell you start limiting your solos to either games where two players are completely equally matched and race for the finish line or scenarios where the player times his final stab so perfectly and so out of nowhere that it's too late to do anything about it. Both fine respectable finishes, but for what you lose i don't see what you gain in this? Maybe more people try for solos but the climb is now harder for them to get there. You're encouraging stalematers just as much as you're motivating solo seekers. The game would be much more interesting if the solution involved a means to keep everybody invested in seeing the game carry on as long as possible, that's when solo opportunities open up and that's when the competitive juices really come out. I love me a good heated end-game.
Merirosvo (302 D)
16 Jan 17 UTC
You say it's a flawed system but your only evidence is assumptions about what players will do. You think that players will suddenly become perfectly rational both in their tactics and their diplomacy and therefore prevent solos from occurring. I think this is very unlikely to be the case. If it were, all the current games (which are all WTA) would also end in draws. They don't, and in many cases where they do it's not because they achieved a stalemate (see my above examples).

In your first game you won because the other players were incompetent at preventing you from winning. You say they were motivated by a 3 way draw, but that doesn't really follow from their actions. I'd say they got caught up in their fight despite the fact that it wasn't strategic to continue fighting. (Looks like it may have been Italy's fault)

In your second game, it is a similar case of players being bad at preventing you from winning. It is in their interest to prevent you from soloing. If Italy's being pushed out than that's Turkey and France being incompetent. If it's Italy that's refusing to work together than it's Italy's fault. The point is, someone was being incompetent and that's how you won.

For the third example Russia and Turkey saw the threat by Italy, and started to work together. Turkey then went full imbecile and attacked Russia, and didn't even try to defend himself from Italy. There's no strategy there, just incompetence.

Same goes for the last example. France was attacking other people despite the clear threat posed by England. At the end it looks like France NMR'd twice. Again, France wasn't being strategic.

I have no problem with players making mistakes or playing badly, that's part of the game. And these bad plays are often what leads to solos. As I have said, players will play with just as much messiness and incompetence in my version as the others and therefore there should be plenty of solos.

What I want to get rid of are the games where players have no interest in winning.
Merirosvo (302 D)
16 Jan 17 UTC
@slypups

It doesn't guarantee stabs. Players are capable of making temporary truces that end at a certain point. In my experience this is a lot more common in offline games.

Players can also get reputations for being rational or irrational. That is, if player A has a reputation for being highly strategic you know you can trust them to do what is in their own interest. This contrasts with player B who may go full kamikaze after losing a single SC.
Jeff Kuta (2066 D)
16 Jan 17 UTC
"What I want to get rid of are the games where players have no interest in winning."

It sounds like you mean: "I want to get rid of [the players who] have no interest in winning."

Weak games happen, usually with weaker or inexperienced players. Create games with 101 point antes or more and you'll get rid of some of the riffraff who aren't committed to playing to win.
Floodgates (2084 D)
16 Jan 17 UTC
Just sounds to me like Merirosvo wants to be able to turn his many defeated games into draws.
slypups (1620 D)
16 Jan 17 UTC
@Merirosvo - true, temporary alliances or truces do happen that end without a stab, but stabs happen a lot more.
SuperSteve (894 D)
17 Jan 17 UTC
I think it is a very interesting suggestion with merit. It would at least be fun to have a few games with these rules, if only to see if they played out the way that the OP imagines or in some other way.
VillageIdiot (4709 D)
17 Jan 17 UTC
Why don't you give it a try and find out, it's easy enough for you to test your premise. Just arrange a game where all participants agree to cancel the game rather then draw if it doesn't end in a solo. That's basically what this is.


39 replies
jmo1121109 (2482 D Mod)
16 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
Congratulations Zultar
On winning the first 1 vs 1 game ever made (paused till now) on this site (gameID=187512).
29 replies
Open
leon1122 (211 D)
15 Jan 17 UTC
Rule Question
Can you support an enemy unit to attack your own unit?
11 replies
Open
WyattS14 (100 D)
15 Jan 17 UTC
Med Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=189125 This game is with 2 other friends of mine, and we couldn't get a full group together. We are in no way metagaming. The password is lollol
0 replies
Open
WyattS14 (100 D)
15 Jan 17 UTC
Posting password games in forum?
Was wondering if I could post a game's password I'm playing with two other friends in the forum? Two others couldn't join last minute
2 replies
Open
Matticus13 (1159 D)
12 Jan 17 UTC
(+1)
Best way to learn code
I want to learn how to code, but am having trouble deciding where to start. Their are many free resources, online classes, boot camps, etc. I would prefer to teach myself, but lack the knowledge to know what language I should be learning first and so on. Any tips from the experienced code writers here on WebDip?
47 replies
Open
taos (281 D)
15 Jan 17 UTC
what happens when to fleets convoy the same army to the same point?
?
3 replies
Open
snowy801 (621 D)
15 Jan 17 UTC
Stalemate Gaming
Is there a rule against holding a stalemate indefinitely even though the situation is clear? I think he's hoping the rest of us give up and leave, which if it isn't against the rules yet then it should be.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=189100
2 replies
Open
CAPT Brad (2624 D (B))
01 Jan 17 UTC
The Captain Will See You Now
I am starting my first long term gameID=187773 PM me for the password. It is one day turns and requires an eighty for reliability.
17 replies
Open
zultar (3900 D Mod (P))
12 Jan 17 UTC
(+5)
Removing Known World and Keeping World
See inside.
26 replies
Open
CommanderByron (569 D Mod (S))
04 Jan 17 UTC
PPSC discussion thread:
I don't particularly care for PPSC. But saw that another thread was having this discussion as a sidebar and thought it fair to start a discussion thread. There is reasonable support for PPSC and regardless of the majority opinion the minority's should be heard.
136 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (100 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+2)
Abolish Sum-Of-Squares scoring
Ok, so I understand some people don't like PPSC and don't want it back. I disagree. BUT let's talk about SOS instead. It's a terrible scoring system and is directly contrary to the rulebook.
45 replies
Open
CptMike (3450 D)
14 Jan 17 UTC
New varant porposal -> µVariant
I was wondering if the following Variant was not "easy" to develop and it brings a crazy number of exciting possibilities...
13 replies
Open
Sandman99 (100 D)
12 Jan 17 UTC
Where my Libertarians at?
Just wondering if I have any fellow Libertarians on this god-forsaken website
28 replies
Open
VashtaNeurotic (639 D)
13 Jan 17 UTC
(+3)
New Scoring System Proposal
I don’t know if this has been suggested but:
1. In draws have everyone alive share the pot equally (As they should because SoS is garbage)
2. In a solo, the soloist gains a portion of the pot equal to 18* divided by the number of centers controlled by the soloist or survivors (but not neutral centers or those of resigned powers) and the survivors split the remainder proportionally based on their center count.
*Or however many
7 replies
Open
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