Thanks Putin33. I had a feeling you might know.

IAfter some googling I see he also goes into some detail in Das Kapital about this. At least these chapters do.

Chapter Twenty-Four: Conversion of Surplus-Value into Capital
Chapter Twenty-Five: The General Law of Capitalist Accumulation

Might I ask why you ask?

Yeah, i mean i think socialist history is a massive amazing intellectual creation. But i also see that Marx's predictions didn't see the conpromises that make up social democracy. Though given that real wages are still dropping a revolution could still happen - i think Germany in the 20s shows that the end of liberal democracy due to economic stress is not inevitably communism/socialism - fascists can rise.

And Trump may be that in today's US... Meanwhile i suspect there is no chance of a workers revolt in the US; whatever the chances of a social democracy under Sanders...

bah! the compromises that make up social democracy? capitalism trying to make itself appear palatable to the masses, and using superstructure/ideology/cultural hegemony to maintain the illusion of it being reasonable/the only good way things can be done. things are still so so twisted, especially once you get below a certain income level.


And this is without even thinking about imperialism as the highest form of capitalism, and how capitalism not only is violent abroad, but we have exported our horrible industrial working conditions abroad. I could go on and on on this point, lol.

Marx didn't say anything was inevitable and understood the potential for reaction. Read his work on the 18th Brumaire and the Paris Commune.

Putin33: Right, but there is still a teleological air to his other work. That may be a problem with political theory itself, not just Marx's, but that's what turns me off.

18th Brumaire, by the way, is a perfect example of a work historians use today when studying 19th Century French history. Marx is more loved today for his analyses than his economic theory.

I think you're wrong there, JECE. His economic theory still has a decent amount of supporters as far as I can tell.

@putin, fair enough, i stand corrected.

steephie22: Oh, certainly, but you'd be amazed at how accepted his other analyses of 19th Century events and living conditions are among historians and other social scientists.

I concur that I have little clue about that. I was more talking about philosophic boys and girls as well as the obvious economics people though, I'm not sure whether that demographic outweighs the historians and other social scientists demographic.

The bourgeoisie actively attempting to prevent class warfare by pacifying the workers doesn't mean Marx was wrong.

True that.

"pacifying the workers"....lol Such idiocy. The workers demand more, sometimes they get it *IF* they can demonstrate they are worth it. Else, if they have the power-base, they blackmail the company (i.e. Union strike) which is morally corrupt (ask the companies that go bankrupt...i.e. GM...because workers demanded wages and benefits the company couldn't afford (Oh...but the workers were "pacified"....until the company went under and everyone lost their pensions...)

See, the joy of this society is that you have the freedom to improve your lot in life, instead of waiting fo rthe next government-directed hand-out.

"Ohhhh...but it's h-a-r-r-r-r-r-r-d to get an education and blah blah blah..."

yeah...no....it's really isn't. Yeah, you might get some debt..but if you improve yourself correctly (i.e. NOT art history) then your debt will pay for itself.

Idon't need a company to "pacify" me. I will work to achieve what I desire.

Most of the problem with workers is they demand far more than they are actually willing to work to achieve ($15/hour burger flippers that can't make change for a $5 if their cash register breaks..)

bah....it's all idiocy.

Socialism is the opiate of the morons and the lazy.

BAM....I gotta get outta here now before I really express my feelings and get banned.

But that should be enough to wad up a bunch of your ridiculous panities...

Workmans comp, health insurance, safety standards, legal recognition of unions, minimum wages, etc all came into existence for that purpose.

Though, workmans comp also protects businesses from suits.

Hitler rose to power by preaching socialist ideology. The promises of socialism when combined with the aspirations of authoritarians exacerbates the pitfalls of socialism (unfettered restrictions on freedoms and the free market) that can be kept in check in a truly democratic society with leaders that aren't in it for money and power, while realizing very real social benefits that don't demotivate a society, but rather boost it. Poor people spend 100 - 110 percent of their paychecks out of necessity, rich people spend 5 - 10 percent of their paychecks because they can afford to save. Economies are fueled much more efficiently by real spending and lending, not by unfettered financial speculation and off-shore stashed profits. A living minimum wage of $15/hour will do wonders for the US economy, despite what the CEO's of Walmart and McDonalds think, and even despite what the brilliant krellin might think.

@Krellin I understand your argument, but sometimes these workers have no other alternatives. The jobs they work are jobs that someone HAS to work in order for society to function. In the past people got decent wages from working in factories. Now finding work with decent pay in said factories is hard seeing as lots of the jobs are sent overseas and robots replaced humans for many jobs. Also, you mentioned that companies can't afford to pay their workers more. I don't see how that's possible when owners of these large companies are billionares that constantly hand themselves bonuses.

Krellin shrugging off the issue of student debt is laughable.

How does student debt work in the US? In the UK system it can only be paid if you earn a high salary, so acts essentially as a tax on wealthy graduates. Amusingly the Lib Dems were destroyed as a party for allowing this to happen, despite it being exactly what they wanted in everything but name :p.

In the US you pay your debt upon graduation. Depending on the loan, you can get a brief grace period (6 months usually) before payments are due. If you can prove hardship (I think the standard is loans take up 20% of your monthly bills) you can get a forbearance, but the interest still accrues. If you go on to graduate studies you can get a deferment usually, depending on the loan.

Octavious: Students graduate with tens of thousands of U. S. dollars in loans at interest rates of 6% or 7%. (These are modest figures.) Unlike any other type of debt, former students can never declare bankruptcy on student debt. This along with the massive loans and high interest rates mean that educated U. S. citizens of middle class backgrounds are crippled with hundreds of U. S. dollars in debt payments every month for decades on end, which of course drags down the rest of the economy.

"Right, but there is still a teleological air to his other work. That may be a problem with political theory itself, not just Marx's, but that's what turns me off."

What work has a teleological air?

He insists the masses are the makers of history. One of his oft quoted lines from the Feuerbach Theses is that philosophers interpret the world, the point is to change it. He was a committed revolutionist himself, which demonstrates he didn't think these things were just going to happen with nobody actively doing something about it.

I get it that you don't care for Marx, but at least don't concoct strawman reasons for doing so.

Putin33: Talk about concocting strawmen . . .

Anyway: VOTE!

We can debate this later.

I think socialism is in a sad state of affairs when someone who doesn't even identify as a socialist (myself) has greater respect for Marx than someone who thinks he represents most modern socialists (JECE).

I voted yesterday. Thanks.

steephie22 wrote: "Why may I ask"

I have been having a discussion with a Trotskyite who denies that Marx made such a prediction. He challenged me to quite where Marx made the claim.

Typo... *quote where Marx made the claim

Good luck.