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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 304 of 412
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spyman (424 D (G))
15 Mar 16 UTC
Karl Marx's predictions about wages
If I under correctly Karl Marx predicted that workers wages would fall, over time, until the workers would have no choice but to overthrow the system. Can anyone tell in which book/essay he actually made this prediction?
30 replies
Open
Baskineli (100 D (B))
12 Mar 16 UTC
What I don't like about Diplomacy
Is that this is a zero-sum game. In order to win, you have to make other players lose. I, as an entrepreneur, libertarian and capitalist, find it particularly hard to see the behavior of people when they think they are playing a zero-sum game. Maybe this is why I take human behavior in the game so hard.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+3)
Maybe you, as a capitalist, should count up the externalities.

The early game of diplomacy is not zero-sum. Just like our current phase of growth. But once all the neutral are used up, you reach peak SC; which will happen with oil; and unless an alternative energy source is found, we will have a zero sum game.

Of course the cost to the environment may make it the future who loses for the present's gain. (Again, unless we manage to figure out an alternative energy source...)
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Mar 16 UTC
Hmm, thoughts about how to make a similar game which isn't zero-sum?
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Mar 16 UTC
Also, what kind of enterprise do you have if I may ask?
A_Tin_Can (2249 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+3)
"In order to win, you have to make other players lose."

This, of course, depends on how you define "win".

I invite my esteemed colleague, Valis, to expand on this point further.
TooCoolSunday (319 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
Capitalism is a zero sum game. That's how it works. You either beat your opponent or you lose. There is nothing in capitalism that suggests it should be of any benefit to anyone other than the capitalist. If others gain along the way that is collateral. It is not part of the philosophy.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
@TCS: In theory, a business deal only happens if both sides profit, for instance. The fact that it's possible for two entrepreneurs to profit alongside eachother long-term means it's not a zero-sum situation.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Mar 16 UTC
In other words, I signed a document for long-term cooperation with someone and I'm pretty sure neither of us intends to stab. Whether it's collateral or not is not relevant, per se.
OB_Gyn_Kenobi (888 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+2)
@Bask - You should try the Dip variant called "Entire Universe" where you are the only one on the map and you just keep expanding and expanding.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Mar 16 UTC
I also have virtually no opponents to beat. Complementing goods are a thing.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
12 Mar 16 UTC
@Steephie, are you exploiting natural resources? Are you cheating your children from having a stable environment to grow up in? Are they losing for your (temporary) win?

I guess, in some sense, they are not your opponents because they do not oppose you... But we'll see how that works out.
kasimax (243 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+2)
'In order to win, you have to make other players lose.'

out of curiosity, which games do you usually play?
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
@orathaic:
No (at least no more than you are, I do use a laptop, eat food etc.), no and no.

You have me mistaken for a defender of capitalism. I am not even close to that and actually working out how to play the economic system in such a way to mitigate its negative effects and increase its positive effects, or alter it altogether. I promote entrepreneuring for other goals than money, especially promoting philanthropy. I may go into politics and if I do, I'll have some proposals that your average capitalist doesn't like.

I just don't think capitalism is a zero-sum game. There's enough valid arguments you can and should use to discredit capitalism, but making stuff up is not going to support that cause.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
Obviously I do make money, but only to live off, for self-development and philanthropy. That said, I'm not a saint, but quite minimalistic by modern standards.

All ideas and suggestions about how best to achieve the philanthropic goals I set for myself are welcome. PM or send to mail@broadexpert.com and I will reply.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
12 Mar 16 UTC
Make more money, own more profitable capital, invest profits in out-competing other capitalists until you have a monopoly on all productive capital. Then turn those profits to philantropy. (Bill Gates might be a good example to follow)

Of course since you're not defending capitalism, the is an alternative option. Look at the example of Robert Baden Powell (BP), he created a movement which is now global, and which grows new members. It recruits young people and turns them into adults who volunteer their time to the movement (hence it is self-perpetuating - without the need to profit monetarily) You can have growth in this way... By which i mean growth of an organisation, more influence, not more money.

Of course you have to find somethig which people are enthusastic about supporting, BP used some kin of mixture of adventure and militarism (the scouting movement being associated with a military scouting unit, hence the name, and all the militarism)

And ideally find a group of people who have a lot of time to offer...
pahla (344 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
I think this discussion went in the wrong direction. Diplomacy is a game set in 1901 somewhat realistically recreating a real-life situation which occurred at a certain point in human history. If this game teaches you anything, it is that the balance of power is tremendously difficult to maintain.
Having that in mind, if everybody playing a game of Diplomacy was a well-informed individual completely aware of the human factor and risks involved in ''allying with'' or ''stabbing'' another nation, we would have a balance of power throughout the game. Nobody would ''win'' per se. And we would keep playing the game trying to balance.
This game is therefore an ideal lesson in how difficult it is to maintain ''peace'' or to keep the world, or Europe in this case, from going to World War. In real-life the balance of power went on for more than a decade and when we play this game we go to war with each other in a matter of months (seasons).
So yeah, it's a harsh game when you play with pieces on the board but if you played with something on the line you would probably be doing it trying not to ''lose'' rather than trying to ''win'' like Germany did in real life.
biophil (773 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
You should play more World games! I'm new to the World variant, but it seems to me that the huge map and long games tend to foster stronger alliances and creates many "local payoff complementarities" (i.e., you're better off cooperating with your allies). Clearly, if you add up all the players, it's still a zero-sum game - but it offers many more chances for long-term cooperation than classic Diplomacy.

Also, you could check out Pandemic - it's a game where players are strictly cooperative. You're working with your teammates to eradicate diseases in the world, and either everybody wins or everybody loses. I found it to be thrilling the first couple times I played, and then it got old really fast.
Lethologica (203 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+3)
Gosh, you must dislike a lot of games. Let's start with chess and go and work our way out from there.

And honestly, being "an entrepreneur, libertarian and capitalist" is such a fucking pretentious justification for disliking Dip. You could just say you don't like getting stabbed, it's okay, we understand.
Valis2501 (1053 D (G))
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+3)
Are you sure the free hand of supply centers simply deem you were not competitive enough?
SunRa (1114 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
The verry basis of capitalism is like the mechanics in diplomacy.
MichiganMan (5219 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
I'm not really awar of many games -- be they board, field, or even word -- that don't have a winning, i.e., defeating the opposition, as the ultimate objective.

By comparison, IMO, what sets Diplomacy apart from other board games is that some sort of cooperative behavior is required to be successful -- at least typically. This unique aspect is like a repeating practical lesson in human psychology. Obviously, this "need for friends" can, and often is, exploited, and it is this "behavior" that I think the OP is commenting on.

One of the things that is always baffling to me, is the "stab to stab" mentality that some people play with. I understand that betraying trusted allies is a large part of the game, but I think some people find the thrill of stabbing to be too great to resist, even when it is easy to see (or should be easy to see) that doing so is of little to no benefit.

In chess, you never trust the opponent, so although it's thrilling to pull of a great fork, discovered check, or mate, it's expected and thus potentially less thrilling than a stab in Diplomacy. Personally, I get more of a thrill from alliance building than from stabbing. My business -- futures trading -- epitomizes the zero-sum game more so than almost any other -- every dollar that my firm makes is a dollar that someone else lost. I enjoy that aspect though, it's clean and pure in a way -- just like Diplomacy. It's not like some of these game Apps where you can just buy more units, grow strong and then go kick ass.
Valis2501 (1053 D (G))
13 Mar 16 UTC
MM, I think you make some wonderful points. I do ask if you're aware there is a whole genre of games that are "cooperative" games where all the players are allied against the "board" itself (almost DnD esque if I were to make a particularly bad analogy). While I wouldn't argue those games don't have "winning", every player wins or loses together so it's a very different dynamic.
Octavious (1704 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
Can someone explain to me what the "pull of a great fork" means? I can't say I've ever heard of it before, but it sounds quite fun.
kasimax (243 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
it means someone lost an f and you're trying to be funny.
Octavious (1704 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
What?
Octavious (1704 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
If you're trying to be enlightening, kasi, you're making a hash of it. If you're trying to be a git you can sod off. I don't see anywhere in that line where the addition of an f makes the meaning any more obvious
The missing f is from "pull off a great fork". I would imagine as in fork in the road implying a divided path (not a kitchen utensil - Yogi Berra comes to mind). So your opponent assumed you'd going down path A and to his/her surprise you've gone down unforeseen path B to a sudden check or checkmate. Such is my interpretation.
Regarding the larger question of zero-sum games and human behavior reduced to its crudest terms, sort of like sandlot bullying and alliances. I think that is why people play Diplomacy. It strips away much of the social conventions that have evolved to mask the games all humans play as they interact. Even in a great cooperative game such as Pandemic (to name one) it can be hard to get "opponents" not to backstab or pridefully do one small aspect that celebrates oneself and does not better the greater game.

Since we are using the language of game theory, it is worth noting it was 20 years between Nash developing the Nash equilibrium to imply cooperation beats universal selfishness in communities and Axelrod demonstrating through Tit-For-Tat that eternal and naive kindness doesn't necessarily win out either. Altruism with veiled threats and sometimes executing the threats to prove they're real. I feel that is Diplomacy at its core.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
13 Mar 16 UTC
As a Dutch ex-chess player I don't know the term but I assume it means that, for instance, you place your Knight in such a position that it can move to one of two pieces next turn, whilst the opponent can only move one piece away, obviously, so you're guaranteed to take a piece. That piece is either unprotected so you take it for free or it is protected but more valuable than your Knight.

I don't know whether it only applies to a Knight, but that seems like the most obvious example.
Deinodon (362 D (B))
13 Mar 16 UTC
I think it most traditionally is done with pawns, though.
Octavious (1704 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
Aww... so there is no expression about the pulling of a great fork or pulling off a great fork. Well, there bloody well should be. I'm going to try and get it established as a diplomacy term as soon as I can find a situation it applies to.

Have there been any famous diplomatic incidents involving cutlery?
Octavious (1704 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
"Even cutlery can cause trouble. Hugh Lunghi, who was a British interpreter at Winston Churchill's wartime meetings with Stalin, saw the Soviet leader thrown into confusion by an elaborate place setting.

,""How does one use these tools," he asked. In the end, though, Stalin conceded: "We are primitive in our approach to food. We have a lot to learn from you""

I think there's potential here...
Baskineli (100 D (B))
13 Mar 16 UTC
Interesting discussion.

I think that I agree with MichiganMan - what baffles me is the "stab to stab" mentality. The games in which someone is stabbing you, although it clearly gives a solo to someone else. Just because you can stab, doesn't mean you SHOULD stab.

It is almost a suicidal behavior.
MichiganMan (5219 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
Sorry, I meant "pulling OFF a great fork" not of ... Steephie explained the fork properly. If you're more curious and need some visuals see here

http://www.chesscorner.com/tutorial/tactics/forks/forks.htm
Lethologica (203 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
I prefer the skewer to the fork, myself. A comparative rarity in chess, and at the dinner table too.
Patburu (0 D X)
13 Mar 16 UTC
Although I do agree that a fork may be more expected to be attempted in chess, I think anyone who does not expect a stab to come is naive. I'm always more shocked when a game ends without a stab by my closest ally(s)
orathaic (1009 D (B))
14 Mar 16 UTC
Forks with a knight may be the easiest (due to the kinghts peculiar movement and ability to ignore intervening pieces) forks with a pawn may be most effective, due to pawns eing a really cheap piece to lose; you can also fork with a bishop, queen or rook. Though, particularily with the queen, you don't want to lose such an expensive piece and finding two targets who are both unprotected may be hardest.

Using a knight may also be more common because the targets don't threaten the knight, again due to its unique move.

That said, does a fork not usually have four points? A trident has three, a skewer has one... And i'm not sure what the word for two pointed utensil is...
steephie22 (182 D (S))
14 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
You can do a fork with a King as well if the opportunity arises :-)
Lethologica (203 D)
14 Mar 16 UTC
Nobles and royalty utilize forks as a matter of course. Pawn forks are effective because nobody expects the buggers to have table manners. (That said, pawn forks are surprisingly common in opening theory, usually as an indirect knight trade.)

On the other hand, knights and pawns can't pin.

Two-pronged forks are the original forks, IIRC.
TooCoolSunday (319 D)
14 Mar 16 UTC
@steephie

That you have an agreement to join forces with another does not stop it being zero sum. Someone else will lose. In fact if you join with sufficient 'anothers', then the loss by others will probably be even worse as you are now running a cartel. The philosophy remains the same.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
15 Mar 16 UTC
The point is you produce something useful that would otherwise not be produced, or provide services that would otherwise not be provided. You add something.
Claesar (4521 D Mod)
15 Mar 16 UTC
A fondue fork.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
15 Mar 16 UTC
@Steephie, you add something. But you also take something away; oxygen from the environment, Water resources, coal, or oil.

Covering some land in solar panels blocks the plants below from sunlight, taking away their opportunity to grow. Almost any economic action, or 'growth' has a trade off. And when we run out of environment to exploit, it is like in diplomacy when you run out of neutral supply centers to take over - it becomes a zero-sum game.

Some environments are already at peak productivity - look a fishing, and fish stock levels. Other are dwindling and not replenished (look at oil, which underpins too much of our energy economy, and this facilitates the rest of our economic activity).

Every action adds and also subtracts. Even non-economic actions; caring for your elderly parent, is an action which adds to their welfare; paying a live-in nurse also adds to their welfare. But one action is paid and therefore can be counted towards GDP.

In one case you subtract from your wealth, in the other you subtract from your time. But either way, no action is without both.

I usually talk about child-care, but this generalises, sex and sex-work, education and self-leaning, even playing diplomacy, every action we take can be viewed in this economic sense but more actions is not inherently good.

There is nothing explicitly moral about growth. And growth can be either sustainable or unsustainable.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
15 Mar 16 UTC
Also useful-ness in the economic sense does not equate to an improved quality of life.

When tv was introduced into the Kingdom of Bhutan many people had more access to information, but gross national happiness went down dramatically.

So aside for the economic considerations (and gdp as a measure fails to account for the value of every parent who reads their child a bed-time story) there is a psychological impact.

You can add 1 iphone to the system, and 1 person may be happier but you've also made N-1 people unhappy because they don't have an iphone.

In Bhutan, tv allowed the people find out the comparative poverty they were living in. Making them all measurably worse off.
steephie22 (182 D (S))
15 Mar 16 UTC
Sure, there's a trade off to everything. I agree. That doesn't mean everything is a zero-sum game.

Most of my work is developing/improving websites (usually replacing older ones) and developing apps for people's convenience so they can access services easier on their smartphone, taking less time.

Apart from time invested and development costs, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find the trade offs that could make it a zero-sum game. I use the same hardware I would otherwise be gaming on at the same time.

The only thing you really lose out on is the nostalgia of trying to navigate horrible online programs.

Look, I think the capitalist system needs to change. I think people's attitude towards money needs to change.
However, you can't just say everything is suddenly a zero-sum game.
orathaic (1009 D (B))
15 Mar 16 UTC
It is not zero-sum. But when your sums ignore certain costs the are explicitally misleading.

The costs in question being external, so environmental damage (which nobody has to pay for) or personal, like the opportunity cost of not spending tine with your family, which also can't be measured monetarily.

For you the opportunity cost of not playing video games is not measurable, but comparatively speaking that still amounts to about the same environmental impact...
steephie22 (182 D (S))
15 Mar 16 UTC
The positive external effects are essentially my end-goal, so I try hard not to ignore any of them. Obviously, it's hard to quantify all of that into one formula that accounts for everything, but as long as I haven't figured out the formula, awareness and common sense goes a long way.


46 replies
JEccles (406 D)
10 Mar 16 UTC
Ghost Ratings
What happens if we can't find ourselves on the list when using control+F? Does that mean we haven't been ranked?
26 replies
Open
Colonel Saloh Cin (100 D)
15 Mar 16 UTC
Is Beast Coast still alive, or did it die long ago?
Or is it just now making it's way out the door. Flatbush Zombies released their first main album on the 11th, so that's why I'm asking.
2 replies
Open
KingCyrus (516 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
Voting Strategy
With the current political landscape, I am facing the very real possibility of the two main candidates being, in my opinion, pretty awful. I have had numerous discussions with friends over the strategy, but I bring it to you. Is it worth it to vote on principle? Should I vote third party if I think they are the best candidate? Or do I vote for the lesser of two evils among the big two?
116 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (4864 D Mod (G))
14 Mar 16 UTC
A Donald Trump Conspiracy
Or, if you would prefer, a case that he is one of the best marketers and media manipulators around, something I think we already knew.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/03/13/donald-trumps-chicago-scam/
46 replies
Open
JenkinsCh (35 D X)
14 Mar 16 UTC
Paused Game
So about 3 months ago I started playing WebDip. I told some friends and they started to play too. Well one guy stopped playing so we paused a game... and its still paused, is their a way to unpause/draw it. Haha
2 replies
Open
kaner406 (381 D)
14 Mar 16 UTC
(+9)
2012 World Cup
A compilation of that epic match for your pleasure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oLlb5TndQs
2 replies
Open
cpman (0 D X)
14 Mar 16 UTC
Anybody up for a Low-Stakes Live Game in like an hour?
Hi!
Just wondering if anybody would be up for a low stakes live game starting in like an hour.
I'm thinking a bet of 10 and 15 minute phases?
4 replies
Open
eturnage (500 D (B))
14 Mar 16 UTC
not ready setting
Hello, I'm a newbie here. I am curious. If I put in some orders, save them and click the ready button, my orders are in and everything is great. Later, I go and click not ready. My previous orders were in and now I am changing some of them. I fail to clock watch and the time to make my moves expires. Does the software progress with my first set of orders? Or does the software cause my power to go into Civil Disorder.
4 replies
Open
JEccles (406 D)
14 Mar 16 UTC
The "Won't Hit Ready" Sportsmanship Move
What are thoughts on people not readying up when the game doesn't go their way?
15 replies
Open
reedeer1 (100 D)
14 Mar 16 UTC
Taunt
wouldn't it be great if a troop as its turn could taunt? It would create so much salt. It would do nothing but change its appearance for that turn. I know taunting could be done in global, but still it would be fun.
3 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D (B))
25 Feb 16 UTC
Irish Election Predctions
So i'm going to vote tomorrow, and here are my predictions.
54 replies
Open
VillageIdiot (6680 D)
10 Jun 15 UTC
ODC Tournament Update
.. let's check in and see how things are shaping up.
779 replies
Open
reedeer1 (100 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
More Than, or less than?
My mom is creating a recipe book that is going to be published, and she came to a point where she didn't know weather to capitalize as part of the title: "More Than, or Less Than" or not "more than, or less than"
Which way do you guys think is right?
39 replies
Open
brainbomb (284 D)
04 Mar 16 UTC
Buy used copies of Windows 95, 97, XP
I also have free copies of AOL 2.0 And Netscape 3.5.1 from 1999. TOP NOTCH SHIT. Ill cut you a deal yo. Half off the price + HJ under the table ;). Also free copies of the King James Bible.
4 replies
Open
brainbomb (284 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
It's No Longer Valis Birthday
But it is mine.
The guy who stole the crown for most annoying webdipper. In the spirit of shameless self promotion, roast me if you want. Feel free to call me an assholio.
8 replies
Open
wjessop (100 D X)
25 Feb 16 UTC
(+2)
RECLAIM THE NIGHT
Women should feel and be safe walking in the streets every day and night. Sadly, this just isn't the case, all across the world. But once a year UK feminist groups hold a Reclaim the Night march across our cities. Tonight is that night, reclaiming the night for our mums, sisters, daughters, family and friends that just happen to be women.

http://www.reclaimthenight.co.uk/why.html
212 replies
Open
brainbomb (284 D)
05 Mar 16 UTC
Rivalries
Who is your biggest rivals on webdiplomacy? Is there anyone you cannot stand playing against and why? Share your rivalry tales here.
63 replies
Open
brainbomb (284 D)
11 Feb 16 UTC
(+1)
Roman's never recorded anyone named Jesus being crucified
For an empire which was renowned for record keeping; it always struck me as odd that nobody named Jesus was ever Crucified. I asked my Mormon girlfriend once and they told me it was because Romans were afraid to let the truth get out that they had killed the son of God.
217 replies
Open
Al Swearengen (0 D X)
12 Mar 16 UTC
Checking In
.

Gentlemen, I'm back. What did I miss? How are the times and tides of our beloved community?
10 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (436 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
UK in crisis
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/emergency-biscuits-flown-into-uk-due-to-national-shortage-a6927561.html
1 reply
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1363 D)
11 Mar 16 UTC
What's the point of hidden draw votes in a gunboat?
I don't really see any, but perhaps I'm blinkered.
6 replies
Open
MohawkFox (100 D)
13 Mar 16 UTC
Join in for another round of classic diplomacy!
Hosted by MohawkFox, we play another round of good old Diplomacy.
Join here: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=176027
0 replies
Open
Maniac (344 D (B))
13 Mar 16 UTC
U.K. Games expo
Is anyone going!

http://www.thenec.co.uk/whatson/uk-games-expo
0 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (4864 D Mod (G))
12 Mar 16 UTC
I Demand a Refund
I paid for a car wash after I got gas at Shell this evening but their wash was out of service. I asked for a refund and was told that it wasn't their fault that the wash was closed and that I should come back some other time when it's open and use the code then.

I'm curious to see what other stupid things you all should but can't get a refund for because of jackass cashiers.
35 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (4864 D Mod (G))
13 Mar 16 UTC
(+4)
It's Valis's Birthday
The guy who stole the crown for most annoying person on webDip (before having it swiftly taken again by brainbomb) is turning 74 years old today.
17 replies
Open
Patburu (0 D X)
12 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
GL 5-min EOG
I'm just posting my notes beginning in 1903. 4 way draw. We could have eliminated Italy, but we had other obligations that caused us to hit draw


5 replies
Open
Yoyoyozo (182 D)
11 Mar 16 UTC
(+1)
Congrats on your well deserved solo!
Please use this thread to congratulate people that decide to solo a game because of a CD that gives them the solo.
13 replies
Open
brainbomb (284 D)
12 Mar 16 UTC
Why Freya is a better Deity than Yaweh
Freya actually helps harvests and stuff
11 replies
Open
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