My neighborhood is hilarious, where I live, it is beautiful with lush trees and flowerbeds and nice neighbors. 2 colodosacs north, there have been a few murders, one of my brother's friends got his skull cracked, and the police won't always respond to calls.

"Considering that religious groups tend to group contraception and abortion as immoral for the same reasons (because they want to prevent sex from occurring unless specifically for childbirth, because apparently feeling good and having fun is sinful), it seems to me that religious groups do in fact believe that they are one in the same, or at least that abortion is a form of contraceptive, even though it is its own process."
I'm all in favor of contracepting (contraceiving?) within an active sex life. My wife and I do it all the time......well, most of the time. There are some, perhaps many, religious groups that would say I've got it wrong, but I don't belong to any of them.

"Claiming that requires a source. You have a properly conducted survey or do you want to conduct one yourself?"
The fact that there's an active controversy over abortion and that one of the permissible exceptions for many pro-lifers is referred to as "when the life of the mother is at stake" isn't evidence?

Or perhaps another dictionary (Merriam-Webster, in this case) will do?

Definition of MOTHER

1
a : a female parent
b (1) : a woman in authority; specifically : the superior of a religious community of women (2) : an old or elderly woman

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mother

HERE!!!
should a woman with plenty of money, a loving boyfriend who would be the dad, who has no scheduling problems with a child, no chance of a miscarriage, no pain or injury during pregnancy,

be allowed to get an abortion after a month of pregnancy? Is it her right?

(Please if you respond to this only address my situation that is given, do not address the probability of my situation happening. I want to keep this question purely off of human morals, to establish a core idea of what we're dealing with)

Full Definition of PARENT

1
a : one that begets or brings forth offspring
b : a person who brings up and cares for another



Full Definition of BEGET

transitive verb
1
: to procreate as the father : sire


Full Definition of PROCREATE

transitive verb
: to beget or bring forth (offspring) : propagate


Full Definition of PROPAGATE

transitive verb
1
: to cause to continue or increase by sexual or asexual reproduction


I suppose I could go on, but I think the point is made.

One more.

Full Definition of SIRE

1
: beget —used especially of male domestic animals
2
: to bring into being : originate

@Bo,

"Considering that religious groups tend to group contraception and abortion as immoral for the same reasons (because they want to prevent sex from occurring unless specifically for childbirth, because apparently feeling good and having fun is sinful), it seems to me that religious groups do in fact believe that they are one in the same, or at least that abortion is a form of contraceptive, even though it is its own process."

This is absolute BS. Back it up or take it back.

http://www.goodmorals.org/smith4.htm

@OS ... way too tired to debate you. Unfortunately, I have many hours left in this airport, so here's a little something just for fun.

I'm just confused as to how that proves your point. You failed to address the definition of "offspring," which means child, not fetus. It doesn't mean aborted fetus or miscarried fetus. It means child.

Sorry, I mean the, "because they want to prevent sex from occurring unless specifically for childbirth, because apparently feeling good and having fun is sinful" part. Which you still have not backed up and is just you being bigoted towards religions at this point.

Regarding your second point:

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of contraception?
What, in your opinion, is the purpose of an abortion?

@bo

Okay, I'll carry on down this road.

Full Definition of OFFSPRING
1
a : the product of the reproductive processes of an animal or plant : young, progeny
b : child

1a sounds suspiciously like a description of a fetus (and a child) to me.

But, moving on to 1b.....

Full Definition of CHILD
1
a : an unborn or recently born person
b dialect : a female infant
2
a : a young person especially between infancy and youth
b : a childlike or childish person
c : a person not yet of age

And overall, the point I was trying to make was that some women who have had all their pregnancies end in miscarriage or still birth do in fact consider themselves to be mothers.

This dictionary game arose from you saying that such women do not exist by bringing out the dictionary definition of a mother. I suspect that what you were actually arguing is that women who call themselves mothers without having ever given birth to a live child are simply wrong......which is fine and maybe interesting, but not anything I was originally trying to address until you brought it up.

But since we've gone into that question, it seems clear to me that these women who say this have some ground to stand on if we're dealing in the broad range of possible meanings of "mother."

The purpose of contraception is to prevent a pregnancy. Other purposes of contraceptives include battling various learning disabilities, combatting depression, and assisting in the fight against anorexia in a rare case. On the other hand, the purpose of abortion is to save a mother from irreparable harm, not simply prevent pregnancy or childbirth. I don't think abortion should be used as a method of getting rid of a child simply because one doesn't want a child, but I'm also not one who thinks it is my right to make that choice for someone or, more importantly, let the law decide what is irreparable harm and what isn't when a medical professional should be making that call alongside the to-be mother. I don't think politicians should be able to do make any judgment other than a general one when it comes to medical procedures, and saying abortion isn't okay under any circumstances (or even under certain circumstances like rape/incest) are not general enough to make abortion both regulable and accessible when necessary.

I don't know why pro-choice is considered anti-life, or why pro-life is considered pro-life. Pro-life consists often of people who are far and away destroying the lives of millions in this country (and others around the world) through other political choices, yet they have the advantage of connotation. I don't get that.

@KC ... as for "feeling good and having fun is sinful," there's a reason circumcision exists. There's a reason that men, boys, women, and girls are genitally mutilated in many places around the world, including any that allows circumcision as we do. It is a medical operation, often not performed by a medical professional, on a young child incapable of making his own decision on a matter that doesn't threaten his safety at all. It's not simply religious tradition, it's religious tradition for the purpose of upholding religious politics, which have for many centuries declared sex to be bad when done outside of marriage and not for the sole purpose of procreation.

@OS ... the 'product' of a reproductive process is no more a fetus than it is a sperm and an egg separate. That definition is vague as shit. That said, if you look up "young," there is a definition that stipulates it can be used to describe a fetus; ergo, you're technically right. I'm more right, but of the three people on the entire planet you are representing here for what reason I still don't know, you're right.

Also, @KC ... yeah, I'm biased toward religion, particularly Christianity, because of all the shit that that religion has caused. I'm not biased toward its beliefs unless they are inherently harmful and unnatural, which many of them are.

I also think it's funny that Jesus ran away and hid in a cave for three days because people were mean to him.

"I also think it's funny that Jesus ran away and hid in a cave for three days because people were mean to him."
I'm afraid you're posting in the wrong thread with that one.

"of the three people on the entire planet you are representing here for what reason I still don't know"
I suppose I thought you might find it interesting and mind-expanding to know that there are such women in the world. I may have been wrong, but that's fine.

No thread should be without Jesus.

To be fair, Jesus is fucking awesome. Giving people free bread, wine, and fish? Healing the sick, free of charge and all? Snarking his way to the crucifixion? Chasing groups of animals into the sea, where they drown (yeah, sure, they had "demons")?

Absolutely. He is the core of the Christian religion. He is one of the greatest people ever to live. His followers simply fail to live up to that standard.

Shame about all that. I blame Paul. This is in contrast to the Beatles breakup, where I totally blame John.

Nah, that one was Paul too.

"Jesus is fucking awesome. Giving people free bread, wine, and fish? Healing the sick, free of charge and all?" - this being part of the reason my mother once told me 'you can't be a good christian without being a socialist' :)

Wha i find interesting is the biblical justification for saying masturbation is wrong. Onan (sp?) spilled his seed on the dusty ground, instead of inside his dead brother's wife - as was his duty.

The sin here wasn't masturbation; it was failure to live up to the duty to provide your sister-in-law with a child. You can spill your seed on the dusty ground all you want, so long as you live up to your familial duties.

Now where did that get twisted? The idea that sex should be for pro-creation is definitely here, but nowhere does it say it can't also be for fun. And the important part is, you have a duty to fuck your sister-in-law if your brother dies without impregnating her... Surely that is a clear biblical rule that modern christians should follow??

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

Wait bo, you don't run away and hide in caves when people are mean to you?

"The sin here wasn't masturbation; it was failure to live up to the duty to provide your sister-in-law with a child. You can spill your seed on the dusty ground all you want, so long as you live up to your familial duties."
Yes! Well said!

"Now where did that get twisted?"
My impression is that Augustine was largely responsible, but I'm not actually sure. Certainly he was very skittish about sexual activity in others because of his own history with sexual sin and corruption, but whether he was actually the one who got that ball rolling, I'm not sure.

"the important part is, you have a duty to fuck your sister-in-law if your brother dies without impregnating her... Surely that is a clear biblical rule that modern christians should follow?"
Maybe, but probably not.

Here's the reasoning for the rule on a childless widow marrying their husband's brother: "It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel." (Deuteronomy 25.6)

Here are a couple of points from the New Testament that suggest that carrying on the family name among the people of God is rather less crucial:
1) "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham." (Luke 3.8)
2) "avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless" (Titus 3.9)

Every sperm is sacred!

Every sperm is great!

If a sperm gets wasted
God gets quite irate

Let the heathen spill their's