Old Forum - webDiplomacy

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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.

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12 Aug 15 UTC

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Hi I am new, quick question

I am starting a game with some friends, can you play with less than 7 people? If so, is anything different compared to a full game? Thanks :-)

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20 Jul 15 UTC
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MX: All Star Game

See inside for details

5191 replies

Valis2501 (2850

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10 Aug 15 UTC

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MAFIA XI: Confirmations

I know some people may not realize sign up thread is also confirmation thread so let's make that ultra clear:
Starts 8/11/15, 6 PM EDT

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11 Aug 15 UTC

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When retards play gunboat

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JamesYanik (548

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11 Aug 15 UTC

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Fly Free My Baby :'(

I just sold my first computer, it was really old but i'll never forget its beauty. I never can think of things to bring on trips, but my computer was my best possession. It was like a Mac -1... you know, pre-internet

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10 Aug 15 UTC

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Ferguson

Apparently the anniversary of Mike Brown's death turned into a reenactment. Anyone know anything?

21 replies

2ndWhiteLine (2736

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04 Aug 15 UTC

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2015 Gunboat Tournament Ideas

See inside.

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10 Aug 15 UTC

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Cheap Gunboats

3 games, 10 point, 36hr, WTA, HDV, Anon
First come, first served...

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29 Jul 15 UTC
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Pacific Northwest FTF

I've only ever played FTF with people who don't really care about the game and want to be done after a year, and I always feel a twinge of jealousy when I sew those people having fun playing in real life on that crappy coast across the country. This is just a post to see who might be interested in getting something set up on this side of the country. I'm in the Seattle area.

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10 Aug 15 UTC

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Monday Evening Live-2

I'm trying to join Monday Evening Live-2 starting in half an hour, as it only shows 6 current players, but only gives me the option to spectate. Why is this? My RR is 100%

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05 Aug 15 UTC
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Conundrum

So the people who make the schedules at my school are kinda dumb. I signed up for both AP Micro/Macroeconomics and AP European History. Only one class of each is being offered. And they happen to be the same hour. So I need to drop one and pick up some other course. I really don't know, so what (preferably AP) course would you suggest for me to take instead of AP Micro/Macroeconomics (because there's no chance I'll drop Euro)?

132 replies

Valis2501 (2850

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07 Aug 15 UTC
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DIPCON @ Philadelphia Massacre - Live

I'm risking life and limb to bring you guys the latest news all weekend and all tournament long.

108 replies

Check_mate (100

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03 May 15 UTC
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Not "Who am I?", but WHERE am I?

Have some time to kill. Ask yes/no questions to guess WHERE I am. If you guess right you go next. If you guess wrong you're out for the rest of the round.

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Valis2501 (2850

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07 Jul 15 UTC

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MAFIA XI: Sign-ups

MAFIA XI: Sign-ups

374 replies

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04 Aug 15 UTC

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The dreams of solo--

Friends and enemies are welcome. 36 hour wta anon 50pt. Who wants action?

34 replies

Check_mate (100

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10 Aug 15 UTC

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Cheating accusations

Without mentioning names or game ID's, can I please clarify something.

Making cheating accusations via in-game global press is not allowed, right? The correct procedure being to email the mods who will investigate?

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A_Tin_Can (2234

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08 Aug 15 UTC

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New Italian strategy article

The army in Venice should go to Piedmont.

(with apologies to Chris Martin)

29 replies

MrcsAurelius (3051

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23 Jul 15 UTC
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Setting up a game

Hi, I have been absent for three years. Its startin' to itch, as Diplomacy remains my favorite board game! Want to play a game with a friend of mine who also hasn't played for a long while.

81 replies

Jamiet99uk (1307

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09 Aug 15 UTC

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I'm still alive

Sorry about that.

13 replies

Octavious (2802

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09 Aug 15 UTC

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Clause IV

The people's flag is deepest red, or at least it could be. Comrade Corbyn has been suggesting he could bring back clause IV into the Labour Party constitution. I'm interesting in what it sounds like to an international audience.

5 replies

JamesYanik (548

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09 Aug 15 UTC

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My Cat's name is Shadow!!! EOG

This is the difficulty of playing a stalemate line, and I done goofed.
gameID=165777

1 reply

JamesYanik (548

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09 Aug 15 UTC

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I got a cat

she is shadow
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CL8At_SUwAAl-74.jpg

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07 Aug 15 UTC

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Getting Germany every single game

Hi everybody, I'd like to ask if anyone has experience with an account getting a certain country every single game. One of my friends who I've played in several games against has drawn Germany out of the pot every single time. We're onto the fifth time out of 5 games he's gotten Germany.

I'd put it up to chance but we've reached 5 sigma and are on our way to 6. Thoughts?

19 replies

JamesYanik (548

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08 Aug 15 UTC

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THE PREMIER LEAGUE IS BACK!!!

Join a Modern Live game as we watch Spurs and United fight it out, followed by the Premier League Season!!!
gameID=165741
Come on soccer nerds, you'll be on your labtop checking stats so just join it and stop pretending.

11 replies

OutsideSmoker27 (204

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04 Aug 15 UTC

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Stop the solo or tighten up the draw?

Which is more important, in your opinion?

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Octavious (2802 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

Number 4? Where's everyone gone?!?

So your response to people who believe they have no chance of a solo is to tell them they're wrong? I largely agree, as it happens. People give up on the solo far too easily. I don't think your Turkey example is particularly good though, for a couple of reasons. Firstly a large draw has not really been on the table for him to choose even if he wanted to. Secondly, despite being rather light on centres, the position was never light on options. If you were looking for games that needed a replacement and you saw Turkey in the 05 position you'd consider it worth a punt. It's not the hopeless case some games are.

My question for you, then. You are 1 of 3 players who have just stopped a French solo at 17 centres and established a stalemate line. You have 8 centres and a rock solid position. A neighbouring ally, who has played a vital role in stopping the solo and has been a talkative and highly entertaining player throughout, has just 2 centres by the stalemate line. France withdraws some of his units allowing you to safely eliminate this ally at zero risk to you or France.

Do you do it?

VillageIdiot (7813 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

Depends.

I'm not opposed to "doing the right thing" in certain situations. If somebody completely saved my ass and i know i would have been eliminated forever ago without their kindness to me and amazing skill or if we just went through 20 game years to somehow pull a game that seemed a certain loss into a win, then yes...i'll listen to the white angle on my shoulder.

If he's "a super swell guy" that probably would have been dead a long time ago had me and my ally not pretty much fed him orders for the past 7 years so we could manage to stop the solo, that's probably a different story.

KalelChase (1499 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

You either Solo or not. There is no 2nd place in Diplomacy.

VillageIdiot (7813 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

If that were true we wouldn't give out any points for non-solos. The entire game doesn't work if the only goals are to get a solo or stop one, it's simply too easy to create an any-size stalemate.

As somebody who started his Diplomacy game play over at (that other site that will create a flame war if i mention), the incentive to get the best possible result is made very clear. If I play a game that based on the level of my competitors i should have either soloed or at worst had a three-way draw, if i end up with a poorer draw then i lose points. It's simple, finishing worse then your ELOS stats relative to the other players is a loss and has consequences. From what i understand, the scoring system is actually similar here (for those that care about GR) but unfortuantely it's the negative consqeunce for settling is just not as in your face and for some the WebDip point grab is a good enough takeaway anyways. We don't incentivize better draws properly and as a result competitiveness pales.

Valis2501 (2850 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

GR indeed works in an inspired by Elo fashion (not an acronym!! A proud Hungarian!). For some problems with GR, see threadID=1154241. As to your point about requiring high level players to play for "better" results, for example, at one point in his prime MadMarx would lose GR for a three-way draw, even against decent players, threadID=805752.

VillageIdiot (7813 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

The problem is it's not that transparent. Getting a "Congrats on your 4-way draw, you now get -70

for it" would hammer the point home a lot better. I've been in situations (there) where one bad draw would set me back enough to offset points from my last two solos. To add to the confusion players also have the perogative to completely ignore GR and focus all their motivation on WebDip points or EVEN WORSE be playing ... (shudder) .."just for fun".

Valis2501 (2850 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

I'd talk about this more, but I don't want to get in trouble for making promises.

StackelbergFollower (1463 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

It's a little hard to take into account though because its based on your GR when the game ends (not when it starts IIRC) and it's not always easy to keep track of who is in your semi-anon game or what's happened to their GR in the months since the game started.

I'd also guess that if you're outside the top 10 or top 20, it is probably very unlikely that a small draw (say 4 or less) would be a negative for your GR. I don't know if that's so bad either. Maybe it makes sense there's a stronger incentive to be a bit more cutthroat when you're at the top of the charts.

Valis2501 (2850 )
06 Aug 15 UTC
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It's more of an incentive for top players not to play randos and average joes than it is for them to be cutthroat IMO. Which is why I stopped playing the "climb the GR" game and it freed me to play friendlies / introductionary games / CD takeovers.

Unless we have an opt-in rating system, or an opt-out rating system, rather than the "every game matters regardless if it's tournament / friendly / competitive / CD-takeover" system, I rather be freed from worrying types 1,2, and 4 affecting my rating for number 3 than be scared to play types 1,2, and 4.

But that's my choice, I'd respect some other choices as well.

Valis2501 (2850 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

VI, for example, is god-like enough that he can play tournaments (with non-GR like scoring systems), friendlies/randoms, and possibly even CD-takeovers and do so well with them they don't drag down his competitive rating. I'm not that good yet.

Brankl (231 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

I think elo isn't all that well suited for a 7-player game. I have a background in chess, where rating systems make a lot more sense because they're more deterministic. In chess it makes sense that you shouldn't draw with lower-rated players, but I don't think that concept transfers over to Diplomacy all that well. In my mind a good (small) draw is practically a win, which shouldn't cause you to lose rating points no matter how weak the opponents. A good player can't be expected to solo consistently even against easy opponents.

Brankl (231 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

Also weak opponents can be harder to play with, unlike chess. I recently had Italy in a public chat game and Russia got an easy solo because France and Turkey didn't do enough to stop him

Brankl (231 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

And luck is a much bigger part of Diplomacy. If everyone decides to attack you, it doesn't really matter what you play. Now negotiation should be a factor, but still...
In chess, if you play a perfect game you can't lose (yet to be proven especially for black, but a reasonable conclusion). I don't think the same is true of Diplomacy. Way more factors involved

mscott (384 )
06 Aug 15 UTC

We had a very relevant experience here:
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=161305
---
Three teamed up to stop a solo, then Turkey withdrew specifically to thin the draw. Given the circumstances, a reasonable approach, and I think leads to an I nteresting question:
If there is no danger of a solo, do you thin the draw on principle? Or protect your former ally out of a sense of loyalty?
---
Probably quite varied game-to-game. Even in this case, which was a league game, it was a difficult decision to make; however, on the balance I would say that the following priorities can be pretty consistently implemented regardless of game specifics:
1. Win
2. If you can't win, draw with as few people as possible
2a. If there is a choice between drawing with more and trying for fewer but risking a win from a prepared opponent, draw with more.

Octavious (2802 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

Bless... Villageidiot pretending he doesn't play just for fun :p.

Everyone plays for fun. The only difference is that some people find points or GR fun and others don't. When I first started playing here I felt getting over 200

was quite a big deal. Points soon became completely irrelevant, especially after discovering that in high points games many people start playing ridiculously conservatively, and getting into the top 100 GR became my chief goal.

As Valis has pointed out, getting into the top 100 is quite doable if you change your style to maximise GR, but it places huge limitations on what games you can play and the enjoyment you get out of the it. After spending a year or so floundering between 80th and 150th, I decided to tell GR to sod off, resigned myself to the top 500, and play just for fun.

I've been somewhere in the top 500 ever since, and will never achieve more than a couple of 1000

, but it makes for a far better experience.

VillageIdiot (7813 )
07 Aug 15 UTC
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Never could get excited about the coin aspect. Neat novelty, but only ever treated it as a means to get into higher quality games. Soon as i scratched up 2000 i used almost all of it to buy into a game with a bunch of the top guys, which i consequentially lost all of due to a poorly time meltdown of one of the players.

And sure, we all do this because we enjoy it but of course that's not really what i'm referring to. When you're playing games that involves strategy and reading people and predicting human nature and that sort of thing it just kills the flow of the game when you've got a participant who really doesn't have any motivation to win and maybe will just throw it if somebody makes him upset or if he gets bored enough or if that guy seems nice and probably would appreciate the win more then me or whatever.

Valis2501 (2850 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

+1

IshmaelGuantanamoIV (100 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

Can someone give a general overview of the GR formula? I don't need specifics, but I would like to increase it. For example, should I push for smaller draws? If I am in a match with a crappy player (GR-wise) will drawing without eliminating him have a negative effect?

ghug (5068 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

So, once you're in a game, GR will incentivize in the same way as the point system; i.e. differences between WTA and PPSC are maintained, and smaller draws are better than bigger ones. The only difference is that everyone commits a variable amount of GR "points" to the pot based on how many they have. Thus, bad players lose less from losing, and good players win less from beating weak competition.

Valis2501 (2850 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

Note that you lose the same amount no matter who you lose to.

"Everyone contributes 2/35ths of their GR to the pot and it is divided just as points would be." -Draug

A 200 rated player winning against 6 200-rated players gets more GR than a 150 rated player winning against 6 150-rated players.

Octavious (2802 )
07 Aug 15 UTC
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"it just kills the flow of the game when you've got a participant who really doesn't have any motivation to win and maybe will just throw it if somebody makes him upset or if he gets bored enough or if that guy seems nice and probably would appreciate the win more then me or whatever"

I disagree. I've always felt that the various motivations behind different players is one of the most fascinating aspects of the game. Trying to figure out which players can be relied upon to always act in the interest of GR, which will explode in your face when pushed, which need constant massaging of their egos, which play for points etc etc is why the game is so much fun. If everyone played to climb the ratings ladder above all else then the game would be greatly diminished.

Jeff Kuta (2066 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

No one should be playing for GR or points or ego.

Play to win.

That is the only thing.

ag7433 (927 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

I recommend playing for 2nd place.

thorfi (1023 )
07 Aug 15 UTC
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^ Play PPSC!

*runs away*

Nescio (1059 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

There is no second place in Diplomacy.

ag7433 (927 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

If you play for 2nd place 95% through the game, then you'll have a better shot at a solo.

Valis2501 (2850 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

it is the beautiful paradox underlining the entire game that each player must convince the others that they do not want to win when it is the whole point of the game. and while some sort of outcome or reward is required for not actually winning due to the nature of stalemates, if that reward or outcome is too enticing suddenly it is no longer paradoxical, nor elegant, nor fun, as players unironically and truthfully plan their non winning outcomes.

Jeff Kuta (2066 )
07 Aug 15 UTC

All the more reason for every player to steel themselves for victory. Gullible players lose.

VillageIdiot (7813 )
08 Aug 15 UTC

"I disagree. I've always felt that the various motivations behind different players is one of the most fascinating aspects of the game."

I agree with this for the most part as well, i really don't want to play a bunch of clone me's either. Variety in player motivations is perfectly fine within reason, but i think there does need to be a baseline for at minimum caring about trying to win and see a game through to completion.

When it comes to seeking out the best possible result, while it's a culture thing here i think the root of this is the structure of the site. Of course for most people that if you don't see much difference between a three-way and a four-way draw you'll err on the side of karma and throw the player a bone. My contention with that is that it doesn't allow a game to be properly played through and I personally think the end game is where the real game takes place. Any player worth anything can survive to be a final four player, that's really not much of an accomplishment.

uclabb (589 )
08 Aug 15 UTC

I agree with VI that it would be nice to have the effect of draw size more foregrounded into the rating systems.

However, VI, in my experience you aren't a particularly aggressive draw reducer. Just saying.

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65 replies

Valis2501 (2850

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01 Mar 15 UTC
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The School of War - Study Group of Winter 2015

This thread is for the Winter 2015 Study Group of the School of War. Please be courteous to those running the game and respect any reasonable requests they may make. This semester the Study Group will be overseen by A_Tin_Can and goldfinger0303. gameID=155736

255 replies

abgemacht (1076

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07 Aug 15 UTC
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No Quarters Gunboat

104

WTA Gunboat 25 Hour Phases Hidden Draw
No Quarters: No Cancel/No Pause for any reason. We play this one through!

23 replies

Tru Ninja (1016

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06 Aug 15 UTC
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You Just Stabbed A Guy...

Who should be the first to initiate communication, you or your ex-ally? Why?

64 replies

The Czech (41800

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07 Aug 15 UTC

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Yo mama gunboat

Who was who before it canceled?
I was England

8 replies

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06 Aug 15 UTC

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Live Austria Available

gameID=165677
For those who are in the mood for a challenge

1 reply

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