Yes, the US would never do anything to stifle free speech.

More rallies get killed here than anywhere...

When I suggested "illegal in most communities", I meant internet forums, not national laws.

@Gtlblx - You confuse government stifling free speech with political opposition doing it. Freedom of speech just guarantees the federal government won't interfere. If you want to make a speech at a park I happen to own so I choose to cut the power and close it because I don't agree with your speech, that is a private individual's right. People seem to think they can say whatever they want wherever and whenever they want. That simply isn't true. Freedom of speech means, quite literally, freedom from the government stifling it.

(Maniac climbs up on a picnic table with a megaphone)

Maniac (through megaphone): What kind of site moderation do we want?
Crowd: Whatever...
Maniac (through megaphone again): When do we want it?
Crowd: Who cares...

@Draug, lol, though Kestas and the mod team got about 10 times the replies and constructive feedback about forum moderation through these two threads then probably in the last year, maybe 2. There were a lot of good ideas about how to refine the mute tool, and a lot of feedback from members we rarely hear from stating what they would like to see.

What happened to your childish vendetta, jmo?

Could it be that you're just as full of shit about that as you are about everything else, you sleazy moron?

Oh I just needed someone to go off on to make my point, you're occasionally annoying enough for it to have seemed believable. Thanks for helping me make my point, and sorry if you were offended by what I said.

You really were incredibly helpful in demonstrating why some additional forum moderation might be needed, I can't thank you enough for that :)

Jmo the only thing you've managed to prove is that private individuals should be able to mute moderators.

If moderators need to contact people they can do so via the e-mail (which we need to have in place to avoid being banned, right?)

I see no reason why the forum should be a place that users need to visit and listen to mod posts.

*bork*

I AGREE WITH SYNAPSE

*choke*

@SYnapse, you're talking to the wrong person here. I couldn't change that if I wanted too. Though personally I agree more with Draugnar's solution, where mods can post official warnings that override a mod mute. Since there are multiple occasions where a forum warning/announcement is needed.

Though you are wrong, I proved exactly what I set out to prove, that members actually do care about how the site is moderated. And that members are not happy with the way the mute feature currently works, mainly due to the problems Jamiet pointed out.

You think those would have been two easy to make points, but members have typically refused to email Kestas or the mod team regarding issues they vent about on the forum. No idea why that is, but it is completely counterproductive to getting an issue worked out.

For example, if you could mute me without me being able to override that mute you and anyone else who had me muted wouldn't be able to see the reason the thread I just locked was in violation of press rules.

I think part of it is we know Kestas has little interest int he site and even less in the forum, so complaining to Kestas seems to be moot and we hope that bitching on the forum will get one of the Dev folk to say "your right, I should go change that". I would do it myself but I just don't do PHP/Perl and don't have the time to learn.

It's pretty fucking hillarious that a bunch of supposedly politically savvy Libtards get more upset over what they percieve as an abuse by a mod on a privately owned, free-to-play web site, than they do over *actual* abuses of authority by the people that can dictate the way they live their lives…like a President that consistently side-steps the Constitution. “Oh, but Oblamer is ignoring the Constitution/Law/Rules because he cares…he’s just doing what is right, blah blah blah…so his violations of my rights is A-OK with me!!!!” but JMO tries to make a point with a little steppin-outta-line and you idiots act like the country is falling in anarchy. Go the fuck away, stupid bitches. +a billion for jmo.

krellin - I say this with all the love I can muster my friend, go climb back in a hole for a while. We are having a civil discussion about a forum we all love. Go do this in another thread. K?

@JMO - I didn't quite get in that thread what they did wrong. It is a public press game. They discussed it in the public forum. So they didn't violate press rules. It is arguable if you could actually figure out who was who in the game from their discussion (although one could postulate) so that is borderline. Now, personally, I have a problem with discussing any ongoing game that doesn't have prior approval of all participants because bringing it to the public results in the public bringing in ideas and affecting the game. But I have been told that I am too sensitive about that by the mods before so clearly that isn't a violation of the rules (although I wish it were).

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it's locked for the reasons I just stated, but I don't think any of those were actual violations of the rules.

And, as an aside, I am *not* in the game, so I *can't* be charge with revealing who is.

I think you guys misunderstand kestas. I believe he cares about this site very much, especially the Forum. The thing is, he believes it should be completely free, which by definition, means he won't be very involved. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

In any game with limited press rules, Global Press in this case, you cannot have any communication relating to the game through any means other then the Global Press. The reason for this, is that it can allow outside members to begin commenting on, and affecting a game that is designed to be limited to one type of communication between 7 players.

Once someone else posted in that thread offering their opinion on the topic presented, the global press only aspect was violated, which is what we want to avoid. In this case I don't think any game play will be affected, but it easily could have turned that way if a debate started between game participants and other members from outside the game.

OK, perhaps I misspoke. I just get the feeling the site has become a burden to him of late. Life has become, well, life. He doesn't have the time and energy to spend here dealing with us morons. I think the general populace here (not the mods who chat with him) would say they get the same impression. I wish there were something I could do to help in that regard, but as long as he holds the reigns, it is his responsibility to steer the site.

Abge is right by the way, Kestas does care a lot about the site. Due to the reasons abge just stated, and because Kestas doesn't have a ton of free time members got the impression that he didn't care. Once that opinion was out there it was very difficult to convince members otherwise. Now that multiple people have emailed him with an issue and have gotten quick and detailed replies I hope that opinion will change.

Draug - no, my point is totally valid. The over-reach on the fake outrage at what jmo did is ridiculous. To act like he is actually harming the forum is insane. If he were to *repeatedly* "abuse" his power, I have no doubt that he would removed. so if I mock the maufactured outrage, forgive me - but I'm just not buying it...and if you all really are that outraged at jmo, then you realllllly need to get a grip.

That last was to abge.

@JMO - I guess I read the "don't go around press" rule differently. Seems public press is anything public. The forum is public. So that wouldn't seem to violate that. If that is the case, then any discussion on the forum that brings in outside views even on full press games would be violating the press rules. I'd be happy to see that be the rule. :-)

Here, the rule actually explains it very well, other methods would also include the forum.

3. Don't work around game messaging/press rules.
If you enter a game with limited press/messaging (such as global-only) then you can't use other methods such as email or PM to bypass this.

@krellin - "The over-reach on the fake outrage at what jmo did is ridiculous."

I was a bit outraged when I read it. Are you saying I was being fake? Careful where you tread there my friend. I thought JMO was for real when I first read it. He and I chatted in PM about it and I understand what he did and why, but at first glance, it seemed very much like he intended to harass maplelaff. Hell, even you stood up for maplelaff when it first happened, and I couldn't let even the threat of abuse be ignored.

I'm glad now JMO did it as it got these discussions and the discussion with Kestas going, but we need to keep them constructive now and not be assholes as you are want to be. Be an asshole in any other thread. I don't give a fuck. But let this remain calm and civil. K?

And I don't think anyone is outraged any more now that we know what he was doing. Now we are discussing how to improve the forum through both code and policy.

If we're going to have an "anything goes" forum, where users self moderate their own view by muting content, I think it's appropriate to be able to mute mods (or alternatively, for mods not to post in the forum other than officially).

One idea we could borrow from other sites is a "mod mode" for posts- where moderators are able to post and be muted as per normal users, but when they need to say something official they can make a post in mod mode (that is visible to all).

--
I've said this before, but I'm in favour of more moderation to reduce the mud slinging.

This isn't because I'm upset by the mud slinging- it's because I want to use the forum to talk about diplomacy, and efforts to do so are frustrated every time something blows up like this. Each time some drama happens, 2-3 new threads are created, then parody threads of those, then complaints about the number of threads, then parodies of the complaints etc. I can mute them all, but even muted threads take up space on the front page (they're just hidden by the browser). My front page was blank except for the live game thread earlier this week. This is pretty annoying- it makes it hard to use the forum for what (I assume) it was originally intended for- discussing diplomacy and setting up games.

"I wish there were something I could do to help in that regard, but as long as he holds the reigs, it is his responsibility to steer the site."

Well, you guys could all stop being such asses and then it wouldnt be such a chore to mod you. : )

@jmo - "other methods such as email or PM to bypass this"

Both of those methods are private which is why that is an easily confused rule. One assumes, because the examples included are private, that it is only talking about private messaging methods in reference to a global press game, and not other public methods. It is a logical conclusion.

@abge - I am trying, my friend. And I'm working on krellin in this very thread.