ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

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Octavious
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#41 Post by Octavious » Thu May 16, 2019 6:11 pm

DavidMaletsky wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:12 pm
One thing I noticed in both my games was that even though it’s SoS scoring, the DSS mindset seemed heavily ingrained. It was particularly pronounced on the one that ended 12-11-11, but on both it seemed like players thought eliminating others was meritorious, and that smaller powers largely gave up on diplomacy, having similarly consigned themselves to elimination. It was very reminiscent of what FTF play was like a decade plus ago.
Speaking for myself, I've never been a believer in playing to the scoring system. I tried it once, and found that playing contrary to my natural style is such a handicap that any marginal scoring gains are more than wiped out by the decreased level of my gameplay. I find the style promoted by SoS repulsive, so my strategy to a SoS game is either to not play it in the first place, or to play it and ignore the fact it's SoS.
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Brumark
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#42 Post by Brumark » Thu May 16, 2019 7:10 pm

Josafina wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:10 am
Brumark wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:12 pm
I thought about it but its a rather complex calculation and there are just better things to do in life. If anyone calculates it correctly I will be mightily impressed
I did some quick calculations - so not exactly "correct". But, I did find that above 80 as of the last update guarantees a spot in the next round. For that scenario to happen several bizarre two way draws would have to take place between specific players - so improbable at best.

If I were a bookie I would put the over/under at 44 points.
Well impressive for even trying, 80 feels about right, you think 44? I look forward to seeing if you are right. I am sure Senlac hopes you are
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Ogion
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#43 Post by Ogion » Thu May 16, 2019 8:06 pm

Octavious wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:11 pm
DavidMaletsky wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:12 pm
One thing I noticed in both my games was that even though it’s SoS scoring, the DSS mindset seemed heavily ingrained. It was particularly pronounced on the one that ended 12-11-11, but on both it seemed like players thought eliminating others was meritorious, and that smaller powers largely gave up on diplomacy, having similarly consigned themselves to elimination. It was very reminiscent of what FTF play was like a decade plus ago.
Speaking for myself, I've never been a believer in playing to the scoring system. I tried it once, and found that playing contrary to my natural style is such a handicap that any marginal scoring gains are more than wiped out by the decreased level of my gameplay. I find the style promoted by SoS repulsive, so my strategy to a SoS game is either to not play it in the first place, or to play it and ignore the fact it's SoS.
Interesting. I mostly don’t alter my game play depending on scoring although, I will seek to eliminate smaller players in DSS obviously whereas I don’t bother in SoS. I do appreciate that scoring recognizes that being on 17 in a draw is considerably different than being on a single center as part of a draw. Certainly both have merit, but I’d say being the blocked solo threat is significant
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VillageIdiot
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#44 Post by VillageIdiot » Fri May 17, 2019 12:27 am

Math was way too complicated for me to figured out, but I heard solos are still good regardless of the scoring system so I just stick with that strategy to keep it simple.
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ChippeRock
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#45 Post by ChippeRock » Fri May 17, 2019 5:32 am

VillageIdiot wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:27 am
Math was way too complicated for me to figured out, but I heard solos are still good regardless of the scoring system so I just stick with that strategy to keep it simple.
solo*
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diplomat554
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#46 Post by diplomat554 » Fri May 17, 2019 5:59 am

Ogion wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:45 pm
diplomat554 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:03 pm
I think we all did our fair share of yelling that game Ogion! I blame sum-of-squares for any annoying aspects of my play. Once my lines were secure, I didn't have anything to lose from continuing to irritate you as long as England was on board. (For what it's worth, I don't think I was ever dishonest with you about my draw vote.)

I think each of us was too big for the other to solo. We both had to dedicate too many units to holding the line against each other to finish off England or Turkey. I may have had an outside chance if I hadn't forgotten to let Italy survive in 1910 -- d'oh, sorry man. And then there was the Munich misorder lol. Would have been nice to be top of the board but you deserved it Ogion. Big shout out to DarthWader and Pjsticha for making it out of very tough positions early on!
Yeah, I finally realized you were being on the level. That was a real head scratcher. I guess it was England?

And I'm especially impressed with England never making it off the island until Autumn 1910 and then making the draw with 6. I don't think I've ever seen that.
England was certainly the big winner from keeping the game going those last few years! Well played indeed, and props for his honesty (with me at least).

VillageIdiot
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#47 Post by VillageIdiot » Tue May 21, 2019 7:26 am

ChippeRock wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:32 am
VillageIdiot wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:27 am
Math was way too complicated for me to figured out, but I heard solos are still good regardless of the scoring system so I just stick with that strategy to keep it simple.
solo*
Ooo, the new flash in the pan has sass. I dig it!

Balki Bartokomous
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#48 Post by Balki Bartokomous » Tue May 21, 2019 4:27 pm

SimonMH wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:32 pm
Having said that, I will concede
My rimes can sometimes be perceived
As tasteless, vulgar, vicious bile
The man who writes them must be vile!

The answer's very simple though
Play fair and do not fork me! Oh
I give you warning plain and clear
Play fair and do not fork me, dear

And yet and yet, I can regret
It ever came to this sad nyet
I could say sorry, even now,
If there were some way, somehow?
All good, man. We share the blame for our diplomatic breakdown together. We could not manage to get along, and that failure lost the game for both of us, not one of us. You are clearly a strong player, and I hope I have another chance to play a game with you.

Senlac
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#49 Post by Senlac » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:57 pm

Josafina wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:10 am
Brumark wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:12 pm
I thought about it but its a rather complex calculation and there are just better things to do in life. If anyone calculates it correctly I will be mightily impressed
I did some quick calculations - so not exactly "correct". But, I did find that above 80 as of the last update guarantees a spot in the next round. For that scenario to happen several bizarre two way draws would have to take place between specific players - so improbable at best.

If I were a bookie I would put the over/under at 44 points.
As someone scoring JUST over 44 pts I wish this prediction had held, but sadly I’m pretty sure it won’t. My prediction is 50+ will be needed, so the participant currently with 50.4 would then be #28.
Good luck to all who make it & thanks for setting up an excellent ODC 2019 on webDip. I’ve enjoyed playing on this site this year. Best Regards Senlac.
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jmo1121109
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#50 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:06 am

Senlac wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:57 pm
Josafina wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:10 am
Brumark wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:12 pm
I thought about it but its a rather complex calculation and there are just better things to do in life. If anyone calculates it correctly I will be mightily impressed
I did some quick calculations - so not exactly "correct". But, I did find that above 80 as of the last update guarantees a spot in the next round. For that scenario to happen several bizarre two way draws would have to take place between specific players - so improbable at best.

If I were a bookie I would put the over/under at 44 points.
As someone scoring JUST over 44 pts I wish this prediction had held, but sadly I’m pretty sure it won’t. My prediction is 50+ will be needed, so the participant currently with 50.4 would then be #28.
Good luck to all who make it & thanks for setting up an excellent ODC 2019 on webDip. I’ve enjoyed playing on this site this year. Best Regards Senlac.
You are of course welcome to stick around for some other games.

swordsman3003
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#51 Post by swordsman3003 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:12 pm

I just want to say that...
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=237254
....I can't believe I sort of actually know these two jokers and saw this result. Made my day.

I really enjoyed seeing this Brumark and Sweetwater. Very funny. You'd never see me do this, but still I enjoyed it. Says a lot about your character.

Durga
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#52 Post by Durga » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:55 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:12 pm
I just want to say that...
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=237254
....I can't believe I sort of actually know these two jokers and saw this result. Made my day.

I really enjoyed seeing this Brumark and Sweetwater. Very funny. You'd never see me do this, but still I enjoyed it. Says a lot about your character.
I'd never do this either, but hey... Good Playdip x Webdip result here

Brumark
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#53 Post by Brumark » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:36 pm

Durga wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:55 pm
swordsman3003 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:12 pm
I just want to say that...
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=237254
....I can't believe I sort of actually know these two jokers and saw this result. Made my day.

I really enjoyed seeing this Brumark and Sweetwater. Very funny. You'd never see me do this, but still I enjoyed it. Says a lot about your character.
I'd never do this either, but hey... Good Playdip x Webdip result here
Ha yeh, Sweetwater will have to speak for himself but I was suprised (but obviously very glad) he didnt take the solo earlier after I stabbed and no one else seemed to want to defend.

In terms of myself the chance only came at the the end and can't say I wasnt a little tempted, (budapest was looking juicy) and in a one off game or earlier in the tournament I almost certainly would have taken it, but I have enough points so why stab?

Brumark
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#54 Post by Brumark » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:54 am

Couple of further things to explore.

Firstly I had five player replacements across my two games was that an outlier or did others experience similar? Durga did a great job managing it but it wasn't a challenge I was expecting.

Secondly on the above, how about a quick straw poll as to what others would have done in my position.

The context for those that don't want to review the game was a two way draw between France and myself as England whether either could easily have stabbed and taken 18 at the end.

I initially had a bad start but offered to Janissary for France, I stabbed to stop the solo but the other powers did not move as I hoped to make this effective so re-sided with France and accepted an offer for a two way draw.

At the end I was faced with the following situation
1. I knew France wouldn't stab me as he could have done so much earlier from any point I originally stabbed
2. I knew 50 points was sufficient to guarantee me a place in the next round

So who would have stabbed France for the solo? As I said in the context of a tournament when the current result progresses you.

swordsman3003
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#55 Post by swordsman3003 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:53 pm

I would have stabbed on principle. Also, solo wins will be used as tiebreakers.
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chluke
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#56 Post by chluke » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:24 pm

I would never ever stab someone who treats me with honesty and respect.

And if someone does lie to me or stab me, I will not stab back if they apologize and make the repatriations that I request.

This is a game of honor and diplomacy for true ladies and gentlemen, not for lying backstabbing scoundrels.

Props to Brumark and Sweetwatersam for playing the game the way it was meant to be played! I hope I am so lucky as to play with both of you soon.

teccles
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#57 Post by teccles » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:39 pm

In Game 34, I had a really fun game as a replacement England. It took quite some work to convince Italy and Turkey to take my side in an inevitable war with Germany (talking Turkey out of taking St P in Autumn 1907 was particularly difficult and crucial), and overall I was very happy about how the game went.

One big mistake I made in this game was not seeing Italy's Spring 1909 attack coming. I was thoroughly confused about what Italy was up to - they'd told me they were attacking Turkey, and I didn't see how that was either a sensible plan or a sensible lie. In retrospect, the explanation that they were planning to attack Turkey but also me was the only one that made sense.

One negative for me was the SoS scoring system, which I was playing for the first time. There were a few reasons for this:
  • It made me a nastier, pettier player than usual. A series of small lies while scrapping for the odd SC was not a pleasant way to play the endgame. This was massively exacerbated by the tournament structure, which made every centre from 14 to 16 potentially crucial.
  • It really dragged out the game. We were obviously going to end up in a 3-way draw for the last couple of years; no-one really enjoyed the game in that time.
  • Finally, I was the only player really playing SoS; of the three players who drew, Italy was playing DSS and Turkey really just wanted it over. That made it a pretty weird experience; it felt like I was the only one playing the game I was playing.
Some of that may have been unlucky - perhaps SoS is usually better, particularly when players are use to it - but from my first impression I much prefer the incentives from DSS.
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Durga
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#58 Post by Durga » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:50 pm

Usually it's DSS that takes forever because trying to eliminate people is a chore. You did well though, congrats! Thanks for subbing in and thanks for the analysis!

goldfinger0303
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#59 Post by goldfinger0303 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:12 pm

Hey teccles thanks for the commentary.

I can assure you that most people play SoS like they're supposed to, but I'm just an old curmudgeon who can't shake a habit haha. And those little lies you had to do made all the difference in getting you where you ended up.

The only thing I'll say is that it's a shame France and Germany checked out at the end. Diplomacy with them was almost useless. I found the same with small powers in my other game that drew. Honestly that's the biggest fault with SoS compared to DSS - the little ones have nothing to live for in the end. Had I gotten France or Germany to work with me for even a turn, the ending stalemate position would've been remarkably different.

teccles
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Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

#60 Post by teccles » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:17 pm

That's fair! I was taking a risk by playing it the way I did - in particular, fighting Germany rather than going with the alliance I agreed with them in 1908. You could have easily ended up with the lion's share of the draw or a solo, but it was also my only chance to get through to the semis. Germany failing to coordinate with you certainly helped me a lot there. France I'm not so sure about - I thought allying with me was their best chance to end up being important to a stalemate line. I'd be interested to hear how you'd have played as France?

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