M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[dargorygel]

Without going back and cut-and-pasting (NOW my internet goes wonky???) I understood the process to be
a) In the first day they choose their roles
b) IF they recruit, the recruit's role is randomly determined
c) the rest of us are randomly assigned our roles and notified

Exactly so why you meant with "I still wonder if they didn't buy ANY... but let the random protect them. (I wrote about that earlier. The idea was bashed.)"

My earlier idea was that they spent no money on buying rolls. Whether that was fair or not, I don't know. But I assumed that they could, and that it was a viable strategy, giving them lots of action money

[kgray]

@darg do you still think Jamie and I are town?

[dargorygel]

##CALL.GM: could the mafia have decided to not choose any rolls, but save their money?

[BunnyGo]

I think our best chance to hit scum today is Rivera. Here are the things that stand out to me from his ISO:

• I think Rivera's D1 is mostly NAI until about an hour before EOD when he says he's tempted to vote Jamie. 16 minutes before EOD he responds to teacon's explanation of his Rivera scumread, but he still didn't leave teacon to join a viable wagon. Yes the votes were 4-4-3 at the time, but teacon wasn't getting any more attention and it seemed obvious that he wasn't going to be the DK. The fact that he said he'd vote for Jamie and instead chose to stay on teacon really strikes me as scum avoiding placing a decisive vote. I mean, I got tons of heat for breaking the tie... So it makes a lot of sense that scum!Rivera would rather stay out of it.

• N1 Rivera complains about the runaway wagon on Flum. I get that he wasn't around for the very EoD1, and I'm not scumreading him for that, but he definitely had a chance to cast a vote that would matter and he didn't take it. He basically scumreads 3/4 of the later Flum voters and gives bo town points for "trying to shake things up" and all that combined with him leaving his vote on teacon is really not sitting well with me.

• He said D2 that he had a townread on Flum so he would have voted Jamie over him... but he never said anything about townreading Flum D1. He doesn't even mention him D1 at all, and only responds to one joking comment by Flum.

• N2 he comes in with an irritated post about HR dying that I thought was really towny at the time. But in hindsight it bothers me a lot that he didn't stick to his "vote for people on the HR wagon" stance, which is mostly what he talked about N2. I thought scum wouldn't bother limiting their vote options that way, which is part of why I was townreading him for that statement, but then he didn't follow through so it seems like artificial outrage looking back.

• D3 was Maniac's games, and Rivera spent a lot of D3 scumreading Chaqa. He was sort of defending me and it feels like he was trying to encourage my tunnel of Chaqa. The he doesn't want to vote for his biggest scumread Chaqa, which I understand is fair because of Maniac's game, but D4 he completely forgets about how strongly he scumreads Chaqa and finds more reasons not to vote for him.

• I hate that he comes out the gate D4 pushing the theory that the Maniac kill/save meant scum have a doctor.

• Also D4 he sheeps Vecna and darg onto Macca "to consolidate" with 28 hours left to go in the phase. When I called him out on this I moved to the top of his scumlist, so idk maybe that's omgus, but this really feels like another attempt to give excuses for his votes without defending his reads.

• His reaction to ghug's flip was that he should have stayed on my wagon and only moved to prevent a tie, but that he forgot about Flum's vote. But the only reason him staying on me would have resulted with me being the kill was that the double vote was on me. I think scum knew at that point that seth was the DV, considering he was the next NK. I was seth's obvious DK preference, and I think Rivera accidentally gave away that he knew seth was the DV.

• He suggests that Flum is going to decide the game and that anybody who can't be online EoD should just sheep Flum. At that point, Flum had made his preference of a Chaqa vote known (with me being his other top choice) and I really think it's possible that scum!Rivera is trying to subtly lead us to a Chaqa miskill.

tldr: a lot of Rivera's contributions to the game have been complaints about how badly town is messing up, and yet in most cases he doesn't appear to be trying to avoid/fix those mistakes. He complains about the DK choices but didn't seem to care who is actually the DK until now. I think it's because he only needs one more miskill, and I'm really suspicious he's counting on mine and Chaqa's tunneling of each other to get it.

Ok. Kids playing Carmen San Diego.

So let’s read your manifesto.

Of your points, I think most of them are a stretch.

I do strongly agree with his never following up on the HR wagon. In fact we’ve never DKd any of that wagon.

I also agree he may have known Seth was DV.

Everything else strikes me as conf bias.

[BunnyGo]

Do you think we should all just get on Chaqa now and call it a day?

I think with the time left any wagon that's not Chaqa, you or me isn't viable. We can't allow last minute shenanigans with 5 x 4. Scum won't try to save a teammate, but if they see a chance to win they might go for it and ofcMacca for example is town we can counter them if he isn't around. So, we need to consolidate, it's pretty obvious.

Pushing Jamiet, Bunny or Damo now for example is pointless, at least the way I see the game.

Okay. I thought you were specifically saying we need to get to Chaqa now. But I agree with all of this.

Where is Macca in that list? Is he unpushsble today?

[dargorygel]

@darg do you still think Jamie and I are town?

At the very least I am not voting for you.
But I still town read you at this point

[dargorygel]

I think with the time left any wagon that's not Chaqa, you or me isn't viable. We can't allow last minute shenanigans with 5 x 4. Scum won't try to save a teammate, but if they see a chance to win they might go for it and ofcMacca for example is town we can counter them if he isn't around. So, we need to consolidate, it's pretty obvious.

Pushing Jamiet, Bunny or Damo now for example is pointless, at least the way I see the game.

Okay. I thought you were specifically saying we need to get to Chaqa now. But I agree with all of this.

Where is Macca in that list? Is he unpushsble today?

He's on my list. This anchor ish vote of his seems like a scum ploy clothed in real geographic clothing.

[dargorygel]

See you in an hour.

[kgray]

If my townreads of Jamie and darg are correct, then only one of Chaqa/Rivera/Macca/Bunny/damo is town. And if Jamie and darg are both town, I don't see how Chaqa can be scum because of the RBs and my conclusion that scum assumed they'd have an easy win today.

@Jamie @darg can we talk about this?

[damo666]

Without going back and cut-and-pasting (NOW my internet goes wonky???) I understood the process to be
a) In the first day they choose their roles
b) IF they recruit, the recruit's role is randomly determined
c) the rest of us are randomly assigned our roles and notified

Exactly so why you meant with "I still wonder if they didn't buy ANY... but let the random protect them. (I wrote about that earlier. The idea was bashed.)"

My earlier idea was that they spent no money on buying rolls. Whether that was fair or not, I don't know. But I assumed that they could, and that it was a viable strategy, giving them lots of action money

What did they spend it on? Sandwiches?

[kgray]

<snip>

Ok. Kids playing Carmen San Diego.

So let’s read your manifesto.

Of your points, I think most of them are a stretch.

I do strongly agree with his never following up on the HR wagon. In fact we’ve never DKd any of that wagon.

I also agree he may have known Seth was DV.

Everything else strikes me as conf bias.

So do those two points count as some of his "mistakes that seemed less towny"? Or can they be "chalked up to lack of time and focus"?

If not, what were those "mistakes" that you were talking about in your tldr of the ballad of Rivera? Why didn't you point them out, if you thought they could be scum-indicative?

[BunnyGo]

Exactly so why you meant with "I still wonder if they didn't buy ANY... but let the random protect them. (I wrote about that earlier. The idea was bashed.)"

My earlier idea was that they spent no money on buying rolls. Whether that was fair or not, I don't know. But I assumed that they could, and that it was a viable strategy, giving them lots of action money

What did they spend it on? Sandwiches?

Rolecops.

[rdrivera2005]

I think with the time left any wagon that's not Chaqa, you or me isn't viable. We can't allow last minute shenanigans with 5 x 4. Scum won't try to save a teammate, but if they see a chance to win they might go for it and ofcMacca for example is town we can counter them if he isn't around. So, we need to consolidate, it's pretty obvious.

Pushing Jamiet, Bunny or Damo now for example is pointless, at least the way I see the game.

Okay. I thought you were specifically saying we need to get to Chaqa now. But I agree with all of this.

Where is Macca in that list? Is he unpushsble today?

I don't think so, as you were pushing him, but it isn't working.

[Chaqa]

I feel like we're sleeping on Bunny and/or Damo as scum possibilities.

[rdrivera2005]

Well, I need to leave. I will be back before EOD, but just in case
##vote Chaqa, won't give a chance to scum to win if Kgray is town.

[BunnyGo]

<snip>

Ok. Kids playing Carmen San Diego.

So let’s read your manifesto.

Of your points, I think most of them are a stretch.

I do strongly agree with his never following up on the HR wagon. In fact we’ve never DKd any of that wagon.

I also agree he may have known Seth was DV.

Everything else strikes me as conf bias.

So do those two points count as some of his "mistakes that seemed less towny"? Or can they be "chalked up to lack of time and focus"?

If not, what were those "mistakes" that you were talking about in your tldr of the ballad of Rivera? Why didn't you point them out, if you thought they could be scum-indicative?

Because overall I thought he seemed lost town rather than acting scum. If those were scum indicative, the rest of his ISO was towny and I’m weighting my observations

[BunnyGo]

Okay. I thought you were specifically saying we need to get to Chaqa now. But I agree with all of this.

Where is Macca in that list? Is he unpushsble today?

I don't think so, as you were pushing him, but it isn't working.

Fair enough. ##vote chaqa. I’ll try to be back for EOD. But hungry kids may happen.

[BunnyGo]

Where is Macca in that list? Is he unpushsble today?

I don't think so, as you were pushing him, but it isn't working.

Fair enough. ##vote chaqa. I’ll try to be back for EOD. But hungry kids may happen.

If I don’t make it, they may have eaten me.

[kgray]

Ok. Kids playing Carmen San Diego.

So let’s read your manifesto.

Of your points, I think most of them are a stretch.

I do strongly agree with his never following up on the HR wagon. In fact we’ve never DKd any of that wagon.

I also agree he may have known Seth was DV.

Everything else strikes me as conf bias.

So do those two points count as some of his "mistakes that seemed less towny"? Or can they be "chalked up to lack of time and focus"?

If not, what were those "mistakes" that you were talking about in your tldr of the ballad of Rivera? Why didn't you point them out, if you thought they could be scum-indicative?

Because overall I thought he seemed lost town rather than acting scum. If those were scum indicative, the rest of his ISO was towny and I’m weighting my observations

Sounds to me like you're intentionally overlooking the scummy things he's done.

[Donny Dude]

Votecount
45 minutes left appox.
Chaqa --(7) Macca573, damo666, dargorygel, Jamiet99uk, rdrivera2005, BunnyGo, Fluminator
kgray --(1) Chaqa
rdrivera2005 --(1) kgray