Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

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MajorMitchell
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Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#1 Post by MajorMitchell » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:51 pm

How good are Law reforms in various jurisdictions in Scomo's Nation ?

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#2 Post by MajorMitchell » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:58 pm

New South Wales has had a crack at Abortion law reform, Western Australia chose "Death with Dignity (?)" Law reform, South Australia is flirting with Prostitution law reform, and the Australian Capital Territory has decriminalised marijuana use/possession (probably limited to personal use amount)/growing up to two plants
Scomo's gang, notably powerful security Minister Dutton are definitely NOT happy with the ACT Government decriminalising marijuana in the territory where their Federal Parliament & Government are located.

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#3 Post by MajorMitchell » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:02 pm

Prime Minister Scomo has just been visiting POTUS Trumptoad in the USA

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#4 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:59 pm

Prostitution is a fascinating one. If you go ahead and legalise it you go and make a workplace environment in which acts, currently viewed as clear sexual harassment, are not only permitted but encouraged. Once you establish this as a precedent, how do you argue against other professions (hospitality, waitresses, perhaps) having sexual elements (groping, arse pinching etc) written into contracts? If the argument in favour of prostitution is that people should be able to do what they want and profit from their own bodies, how do you prevent people from applying this to all sorts of other professionals under the banner of freedom and consent?

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#5 Post by TrPrado » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:29 pm

They’re not even going full legalization on marijuana and people are getting mad? Weak.

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#6 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:29 am

Well the South Australian flirtation with prostitution law reform is far from a done deal. This time the reform legislation has been introduced by new Attorney General Ms. Wendy Chapman, the Conservatives won Government two years ago after 15 years of opposition. In that time two make attorney generals waged a politically useful "war against outlaw bikie gangs" and pointed to their involvement in the illegal prostitution caper, but didn't try and reform prostitution laws to interdict the bikies income​ from that, one of their lady MPs did try with a private members bill, and independent upper house MPs have similarly tried private members bills.
Victoria, one of the two most populous states with a colourful history of illegal prostitution in it's capital city since inception and Mr Batman a founding citizen's role as a client, managed prostitution law reform in the 1980's when a lady Premier Joan Kirner pushed reforms through as part of her Governments response to the AIDS crisis.

Go to go to do some Art caper stuff....

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#7 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:40 am

Before I do, a quick post.. I'm cautious with regard to public disagreements with Octavious our Oracle, but I will suggest that whether an act is one of assault, sexual or of violence depends largely on the question of consent. So a sex worker grants consent to agreed acts in return for payment and citizens also give consent for acts in private in return for emotional rewards (?), yet if there had not been consent those various acts might constitute acts of assault. Haven't time to nuance re place on spectrum of seriousness of possible assualts.. with typical sexual acts that have an element of aggression v the serious assault with weapon acts
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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#8 Post by Octavious » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:28 am

@ Major

Let's move away from things happening without consent, as that's pretty black and white and not of great interest. What I'm talking about is a new airline, or new restaurant say, opening up with female staff contacted to wear revealing clothing and have things like their arses pinched. It would all be consensual, as no one is forced to enter a contract, and you'd imagine they'd earn a fair bit more, but the result will be a work environment reminiscent of the very worst that the past had to offer.

As things stand at the moment such contracts would be impossible, but if you legalise prostitution how can you justify preventing women from doing other lines of work that society as a whole would define as unacceptable and sexist?

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#9 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:06 am

Well Octavious our Oracle fortunately for me I am not an active proponent of any of the Law reforms introduced or proposed so I believe that I am not required to justify any of them. I take an independent position so I can take pot shots at a wider range of targets.
I would first distinguish the four reforms into two groups, euthanasia & abortion law reforms for me are straight forward issues related to the provision of medical services, and in general I accept those reforms.
The other two issues, marijuana use and prostitution law reforms are in my opinion different types of issues to the other two and relate to behaviour. The public have "voted with their feet" in my view in that significant numbers of people use marijuana & indulge in prostitution, and criminalising both has clearly failed to stop this behaviour. So given that society cannot stop these behaviours it is simply pragmatic to compromise, remove the criminal treatment and find ways to manage the behaviour of the public to minimise the harm.
It's easier for me to analyse the pros and cons of marijuana law reform. Simply put, in 30+ years of involvement in security at public events there is a distinct difference in the type and severity of problems caused by consumers of marijuana compared to the problems caused by consumers of other types of drugs, notably powerful meta~amphetamines/"ice"... the worst problems I've encountered from marijuana users are dealt with a loud directive "WAKE UP, YOU CANNOT SLEEP HERE !!!" & if that fails the use of a bucket of cold water might be required to rouse the slumbering pot smokers. Or it's coping with the marijuana user in a "peace and love with everyone" mood of slightly amorous affection or simply directing them towards a handy pizza shop.

Whereas dealing with persons, overwhelmingly male fired up and punchy on Bourbon is far more problematic and persons high on "ice" generally pose serious problems given their usually delusional state and propensity for violence.

So I can accept marijuana law reform as a reasonable proposition and have a "may as well decriminalise and tax heavily" position, but have some safeguards, eg keep the supply of marijuana to a minor (child) a criminal offence.

Most employment contacts are to some degree a Faustian pact in which employees compromise some personal principles or freedoms as part of the deal. Eg, when working as a security guard at events I have to converse in a polite, professional way with clowns who do not comply with a simple direction and despite a profound personal desire to resolve their non compliance with effective use of force I know that the Faustian pact I have made with my employer and the promoter of the event requires me to continue with polite but firm verbal negotiations with non compliant clowns. Similarly I often agree in the Faustian pact to enforce rules that I personally regard as ludicrous.
Another example of a Faustian pact of employment in our brave new world is in my opinion that of persons who accept employment in the coal mining industry. The scientific evidence is clear, the use of coal is a major contributor to global warming. So how a person rationalises their choice to have an involvement in the coal mining industry is most interesting to me.
I a friend who is a physicist and he works in the concrete production industry, he rationalises his career choice on the basis of his work helping to reduce the negative effects of producing cement powder. More efficient, less polluting production technologies his company develops and deploys are a worthy endeavour and use of his abilities in his opinion.

Returning to the specific question posed by Octavious & reiterating my view that I am not required to justify what young ladies do, or do not do for employment, I would mention the example of the "Hooters" businesses in the USA. I suspect that most young ladies who accept employment at a "Hooters" establishment have a clear understanding that their employment will require them to be objects of sexual objectification and exploitation by their employer and the customers. If young ladies make the choice to accept employment with Hooters (or for example accept payment to pose for erotic photographs that are reproduced in pornographic magazines or websites) and such activities are lawful, then what business is it of mine to interfere ?
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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#10 Post by orathaic » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:03 am

I'm mostly with Mitchell on this one.

At present, sex workers (whether working as individuals or in groups) are not offered much protection. They find it hard to get union representation, or to access police protection (usually persecuted by the police) thus making their work more dangerous.

If a client threatens violence or rapes a sex worker, they often have little recourse (despite the fact that it you forcible take any service from any other service provider, the police will see it as a crime, there are multiple examples of police raping sex workers, so there is little trust among the sex worker community of the police).

As Mitchell has pointed out, some people choose to pose naked or semi-naked for photos, I would class these as sex workers. Similarly there are those to setup webcams in their bedrooms and have paying customers watch them play (including interactive elements via text messages or live video conferencing). Some will take it further and employ male talent or offer for a customer to join them.

All these examples necessarily including consent.

Your example is the problem of employers abusing/coercing/pressuring employees with contractual obligation to consent. Which is not, I ó, valid consent. The solution is not to argue against offering legal work place protection to sex workers, but instead to support unionization of employees and/or stronger workplace regulations against harassment (non-consensual sexual assaults).

You should probably look at current strip clubs as your go to business model, or possibly hooter. As to your 'worst examples of the past' - so long as the workers have given informed and enthusiastic consent, I see no problem. Unlike in the past where all women's bodies in public were seen to be valid targets for objectification, we now have a system where the presumption is that most public spaces are off limits for such behaviour (though you do still get harassment in night clubs, where women can regularly experience sexual assault with few consequences, ie bouncers/security staff often ignoring it. This may not be the only place such things happen, but it is the one I have heard most complaints about).

Overall, if hooter is a thing, and you are OK with that, then I don't see the issue. The value of protecting sex workers of all kinds outweighs your hypothetical, which may be better addressed if it were ever to become a problem.

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#11 Post by orathaic » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:51 am

As an aside, my understanding is the term sex worker is an inclusive term. All workers whose job includes a sexual component. So sexualised nude models, porn stars (which are both legal and usually tightly regulated), cam girls, (probably not regulated, but mostly legal), sugar babies, bdsm practitioners (such as professional dominatrixes, financial dommes, and a wide range of other kinks) - the legality of many bsdm practice is questionable, at least in Ireland (and probsbly elsewhere) it is not possible to consent to being assaulted, and many sadism/masochism practices would qualify as assault. This is odd because it does not seem to apply to sports, where boxing 🥊, to take an example, involves two people clearly consenting to violence, and it is deemed perfectly legal. Navigating consent in a sexual encounter (whether paid or not) can be much more difficult. There is no 'throwing in the towel', no referee, and no time limit...

In fact it could be argued that going to a professional is safer for these kinds of activities (though they may not be illegal under current sex prohibition legislation... depending on the specifics).

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#12 Post by orathaic » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:33 am

As an aside to the aside, sugar daddy/baby relationships may infact be legal. If perhaps exploitative. I don't know whether have a legal contract makes things better or not. Clearly stating what is being consented to and perhaps boundaries of what is not consented may be a positive. Though as consent can be withdrawn at any point having a contract which doesn't explicitly state that may be problematic.

But generally, you can imagine a situation where a twenty something woman with a large student debt has an older wealthy man pay for her to go on shopping sprees, buy jewellery, sexy lingerie etc. While meeting for 'dates' a few times per months.

Something which may escalate to the man paying for her rent so she can live comfortably in an apartment (where they can have sex presumably) and paying off her student loans so she doesn't have to work.

Now all of this could be a perfectly legal, if unequal, relationship. Or it could be classed as illegal sex work, depending on the legal system in question and the specifics of how they define things.

There are even websites dedicated to making matches for people looking for a sugar daddy (or indeed sugar mommy). Which makes this more relevant, in my mind, than the hypothetical in Octavious's 'what if' above.

Is there potential for abusing such relationships? Definitely, is the relevant question then whether these kinds of relationships are more suited to domestic abuse laws or contract law.

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Re: Australian State/Territory Law reforms, Abortion, Euthenasia, Marijuana & Prostitution

#13 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:12 am

What might be of interest is the general lack of fuss or consternation by the Australian public in response to the various reforms. The euthanasia reforms in Western Australia, the marijuana law reform in the ACT and the proposed prostitution law reforms in SA have not really stirred up significant public debate, in particular there's been a lack of bitter arguments & vitriol associated with those.
Perhaps unsurprisingly the abortion law reforms in NSW attracted the most vigorous public debate.
It's perhaps unfair to portray the Australian public as apathetic, but an Australian comedian, Ms Denise Scott satarises that apathy by describing a typical Australian protest..
Protest Leaders: "What do we want ?" (Expected response..." Decent wages/ Free public health services" etc)
Actual response "Whatever/Something/Anything"
Protest Leaders "When do we want it ?" (Expected response.."NOW")
Actual response.. "Whenever'

If it's a disgraceful cheating scandal involving our Test Cricket team we get passionate, but most other things we might show some interest but we're not usually going to get too excited.
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