Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

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MajorMitchell
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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#21 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun May 26, 2019 6:05 am

Here's the personal at my end. I'd love to provide refuge for a family of elephants from Botswana on my property in Australia, but it's just not feasible.
One conversation that has been going on domestically between my Lovely Fire Breathing MemSahib, Her Serene Imperiousness Indoors lying on a sofa eating cakes and myself concerns homeless women as the situation for older women in Australia and homelessness is getting worse. I'm of the opinion that this is a national disgrace in a nation as wealthy as Australia and have vented that frustration to my Lovely Fire Breathing MemSahib, and her response is the suggestion that we ( this really means my Lovely Fire Breathing MemSahib supervises & I do the work or pay tradesmen to do it) fix up the unused Shearer's Barracks and give some homeless women free shelter, and free food etc etc.
I'm thinking of this proposal as "Insurance for Eternity" just in case there is a God, in that my Lovely Fire Breathing MemSahib can get the credit with a possible God and go to a presumably Christian Heaven, whilst I will continue to rack up enough sins to ensure my place in Purgatory and at least I will have relative peace for all eternity.
But if it was a case of sign a few thumping cheques and have the unfortunate elephants then they would be my preferred choice..

Oh and that Occam's choice.. don't assume that I would choose a squalling incontinent human baby over the cute ginger headed primate baby. I think Orangutans are just wonderful & most other person's very young offspring ghastly, ill mannered and noisy nuisances.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#22 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun May 26, 2019 9:04 am

@ Octavious our Oracle,
That Occam's choice ..as I remarked, don't assume that I would save the screaming incontinent human baby instead of the adorable ginger haired Orangutan baby.
Can I make it a simpler Occam's choice? My life or the baby Orangutan?
I hope I'd have the courage to save the Orangutan

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#23 Post by Octavious » Sun May 26, 2019 9:44 am

MajorMitchell wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:04 am
@ Octavious our Oracle,
That Occam's choice ..as I remarked, don't assume that I would save the screaming incontinent human baby instead of the adorable ginger haired Orangutan baby.
Can I make it a simpler Occam's choice? My life or the baby Orangutan?
I hope I'd have the courage to save the Orangutan
I will continue to assume that until you tell me with certainty otherwise, major. I imagine having to make such a choice would grieve you deeply, but I have no doubt about what choice you would make.

As for your gesture of self sacrifice, it is a far easier choice to make. Dying for a cause takes very little effort, after all. I dare say you would make such a sacrifice, although I fear for you in the next life when the Good Lady Fire Breathing MemSahib, her indoors catches up with you.
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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#24 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun May 26, 2019 10:08 am

You do me too much honour Octavious, I think it would be much easier for me to save the adorable ginger haired Orangutan baby and abandon someone else if that was the forced choice. (Obviously save both is the preferred option, but this Occam's choice is a contrived choice)
I could justify my actions to critics, the human baby I abandon is not my responsibility, it's the baby's parents responsibility, the Police and Fire Brigade's responsibility, not axiomatically my responsibility.
That's why I made the variation, if it's my life then I have a lot more "skin in the game" & I am selfish. So for me, self sacrifice would definitely not be an easy thing to do, and certainly much more difficult than abandoning some other Muppet

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#25 Post by Senlac » Sun May 26, 2019 11:40 am

I don’t have much to contribute but it appears an “argument” in favour was requested. It’s more of a statement. I believe the Major is correct & there are many creatures I would save from that hypothetical fire, ahead of a human.

I believe our perceived value of a pristine environment will increase over time & it will lead to the inevitable conclusion that there needs to be fewer humans.
How that is achieved is for the future, but one would hope via birth control rather than the other less appetising alternatives.

I believe the future holds a more cynical response to what are now called human “disasters”. Famines & plagues might not get the “have to be stopped at all costs” treatment they currently receive. They contain benefits we haven’t had since the advance of modern agriculture & medicine (but might one day want back).

I don’t think there’s a chance of changing the mindset concerning primacy of human life now, but also don’t think there’s a chance it won’t change in the future. It will happen when the powerful amongst us decide it will happen.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#26 Post by ubercacher16 » Sun May 26, 2019 12:51 pm

@Major,

Several things.

I "conflated" abortion into this discussion as an attempt to find a moral middle ground, that was obviously stupid. My thoughts on the issue boil down to a human life is a human life no matter what stage of development it is in. We can disagree about this, I don't mind.

I also want to say that I cannot answer many of the points you have raised, but I must say that, logically at least, even if someone is a hypocrite they can still be right.

Your points about overpopulation and such are valid, but stand on a very slippery slope. I think it is dangerous to start down a path of taking action that harms a few to, at least ostensibly, help the many.

I also must mention that the devil, allowed by God, was the one inflicting disease and destruction on Job, not God Himself.

About my own personal stake in this. I will not pretend to have any sort of high ground over you, I don't think that should ever be done and I don't understand why you did it yourself.

Also, I am NOT what you would call an orthodox Christian or Republican(I am American). For this reason I don't really appreciate your assuming certain of my beliefs, but I fully understand why you did it.
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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#27 Post by ubercacher16 » Sun May 26, 2019 12:56 pm

@Senlac,

My question was, why do you believe that humans are NOT the primary species? Also, why do you believe that limiting human population is a foregone conclusion?

The latter preposition seems more plausible to me.
Senlac wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 11:40 am
I don’t have much to contribute but it appears an “argument” in favour was requested. It’s more of a statement.
Yes, and I want to hear some of the reasons that you believe that statement to be true. It may seem strange, but we obviously come from very different backgrounds with very different morals.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#28 Post by Senlac » Sun May 26, 2019 1:11 pm

Humans clearly are the primary species. We’re busy wiping out everything else!
I don’t believe human life should have primacy over all other creatures. The evidence is irrefutable that our species is destructive, greedy & uncaring to the fate of others put on this planet. From my personal experience a few less humans would invariably be a blessing. They usually contribute next to nothing.

The foregone conclusion bit. Again evidence suggests that the means by which we could limit our environmental damage per capita (meaning the actual number of humans is of less importance) are going to be ignored as they always have been.
By the time humanity realises it has caused severe enough environmental damage to actually impact humans (as opposed to everything else) the means to correct the situation will probably be reduced to simply taking steps towards providing for less humans. Either because we can’t provide for everyone, or we decide it’s no longer a good idea.

Our backgrounds & morals are irrelevant to this debate. As I said there are no actions to be taken, or arguments to be made. It will happen, the question is when & I doubt you or I can influence that.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#29 Post by Senlac » Sun May 26, 2019 1:34 pm

A clarification to avoid accusations of self contradiction;

Above I say “there are no actions to be taken”.
This relates to actions needed to cause our population to become unsustainable.
We’re already taking those actions very nicely.

In an earlier post I say “but there are reasonable steps that could be taken.”
This relates to actions to feasibly prevent the problem.
I’ll pretty much guarantee those won’t be taken.

My view comes from cynicism of what humanity is able to achieve. Individually there have undoubtably been moments of greatness, but collectively we generally just trash everything around us for almost zero gain. This problem will need more than individual greatness to overcome. It will need a collective will, that doesn’t exist. Humans are greedy & that greed will be their downfall.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#30 Post by Ogion » Sun May 26, 2019 2:23 pm

human population cannot grow without limit. We can either limit it ourselves in a rational way, or we can have nature do it for us in a fantastically brutal way. Those who oppose the former are advocating for the latter. They pretty much lose all moral authority from that point forward.
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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#31 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun May 26, 2019 3:00 pm

Well Ubercacher I will apologise for conflating you with those more extreme religious fanatics opposed to Women's​ rights to choose abortion, and note as an aside that they're not just fundamentalist Christians, but there are extremists from another global religion who are just as bad imho, but I will be PC and not name it. LoL.
But I did have another thought because there's some media attention here in Australia about the Death penalty in the USA as well as the pushback against Women's rights to choose abortion.
We got rid of the Death penalty in the late 1960's
I think it's a remarkable contortion.of logic to oppose abortion and support the death penalty

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#32 Post by Senlac » Sun May 26, 2019 3:33 pm

Major,

“I think it's a remarkable contortion.of logic to oppose abortion and support the death penalty”.

Potentially true, but I believe it’s so because “purpose” has been removed as an ingredient for a lot of our law making, often replaced by “principle” & so called “rights”.
Personally I believe this is caused by laziness amongst our law makers because it’s an easier (& probably vote winning) argument.
If you legislate for a “purpose” you have to demonstrate that your measures will have specific future benefits & obviously subject to measurement, to see if those benefits actually accrue. Politicians don’t like that...

If the purpose of an abortion is to save the mother’s life it could be viewed commendable & it’s hard to justify a law against it.
If the purpose of imposing the death penalty is to protect potential future victims, or a deterrent (I believe it can be a deterrent in some circumstances, but that is a different debate) again the purpose is virtuous & a tricky justification for abolition.

It’s the overall dissociation of “purpose” from law making (amongst many other fields of human enterprise) that I feel leads to contortions of logic & strange outcomes, of which you provide a good example.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#33 Post by Squigs44 » Sun May 26, 2019 4:54 pm

All I'm hearing is that Thanos was the real hero
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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#34 Post by flash2015 » Sun May 26, 2019 8:17 pm

This discussion really feels like it should be in Politics.
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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#35 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun May 26, 2019 8:26 pm

Agreed.
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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#36 Post by Octavious » Mon May 27, 2019 7:10 am

Well, that killed the discussion.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#37 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon May 27, 2019 8:42 am

I had better go stand in the naughty corner.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#38 Post by MajorMitchell » Mon May 27, 2019 8:43 am

Hang on, this is in politics. I'm free from the naughty corner.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#39 Post by MajorMitchell » Tue May 28, 2019 6:44 am

It's been reported here in Australia that the last male Malaysian (?) male Rhinoceros has died and there is only one female (Malaysian?) Rhinoceros left alive, so another species is set to go extinct. Homo Sapiens is the most effective predator on this planet. So sad is the damage that we do.

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Re: Botswana repeals ban on killing Elephants

#40 Post by MajorMitchell » Tue May 28, 2019 11:01 am

It was one of the last Sumatran Rhinoceros. I was wondering what the plural of Rhinoceros is, but that's probably, sadly going to be redundant in the case of the Sumatran Rhinoceros

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