Abortion sucks

[flash2015]

But I don't believe at all that this is the general case. I have known multiple women who have gone through abortion (e.g. my former girlfriend was raped and had an abortion) who have never had any issues or regrets about having the abortion.

That's a bold statement. How do you know it's true?

I ask this as I knew my grandmother very well, but nowhere near as well as my mum did, and her even less than my grandad. And despite this all of us were in complete ignorance of her previous husband and two children that she was forced to give up. Complete ignorance, in fact, until shortly before her death when she began to lose control of her memory and was clearly extremely distressed by people who we'd never heard of. Women are incredibly good at hiding pain and regret. Hell, so are men for that matter.

So, all these women you know who have gone through abortion without any issues or regrets. How certain are you that that's true?

Let's just leave it at I am pretty darn confident but I am not prepared to discuss the details.

[Octavious]

Fair enough. At the end of the day we have to accept certain things as a matter of faith. I have no doubt that you are convinced of the truth of your words.

[orathaic]

Fair enough. At the end of the day we have to accept certain things as a matter of faith. I have no doubt that you are convinced of the truth of your words.

Stop it, if we start listening to each other, and believing we are arguing in good faith, this debate might not go on for another 4 decades...

[Octavious]

Fair enough. At the end of the day we have to accept certain things as a matter of faith. I have no doubt that you are convinced of the truth of your words.

Stop it, if we start listening to each other, and believing we are arguing in good faith, this debate might not go on for another 4 decades...

I hope not. The debate will only end if people stop caring, or if people start believing that debate can't change anything. Neither of those options are particularly attractive...

[MajorMitchell]

Well it's far better to discuss controversial issues in a reasonably civilised manner than to use vitriolic comments and violence. Unfortunately there seem to be extremists who object to abortion who have been prepared to use violence in greater frequency than those on the pro choice side of this debate. I would emphasise that violence or intimidation by any person is unnaceptable.
I've participated in previous forum threads on this topic, soy position is known. I'm a supporter of the basic pro choice policy.
Why ? Firstly I am guided by the women in my family, they all believe women should have the option of abortion as well as adoption, in addition to the "have the baby" choice. They also strongly believe that abortion should be a public health service available to women.
There is absolutely no way that I would even consider defying The Most Beautiful Fire Breathing MemSahib, Her Imperious Loveliness Indoors lying on a sofa eating cakes on this issue.
I also hold the view that prohibition rarely works well. Take prostitution as an example. I'm confident that it is virtually impossible to argue that prostitution is morally virtuous, but I think the pragmatic, harm minimisation policies adopted by many jurisdictions are better than the "no reforms & keep it illegal" policies of other jurisdictions.
The overwhelming evidence from jurisdictions that prohibit abortion, or make it extremely difficult to access do not stop abortions from occurring in their jurisdictions, instead a wealth based division occurs and wealthy people can have abortions in excellent medical conditions and those who are not wealthy have abortions in conditions that are far more unsafe and dangerous.
It's the realisation of that unfairness and the ghastly outcomes of backyard abortions that has generally driven reforms and public health services providing abortion services.
There is also the obnoxious​ compulsion aspect to be considered. The pro life side of this debate wish to compel women into only the choices of which they approve.
Whereas the pro choice side of this debate do not insist that abortion should be compulsory, they do not compel women to have abortions if that is not the woman's decision.
So one side in my opinion is taking a totalitarian position and imposing it's choice on all. The pro choice side support a more freedom based policy.
Perhaps some men opposed to abortions being legal in a sensibly controlled way might change their opinions if the following policy was attached to the prohibition of abortions.
If abortion is to be a criminal offence, then men who sire unwanted pregnancies have one testicle surgically removed each time it occurs. We all have to accept the consequences of our actions. If a chap wants to prohibit abortion then he should be prepared to take complete responsibility for the manner in which he disseminates his seed/semen. I wonder how men who want to prohibit abortion and who push the abstinence "solution" on women would think if we doubled that down on men by essentially saying "if you fail the abstinence test, then you pay a heavy price as well as the woman". I can hear the response.. Gosh isn't Daffy old MajorMitchell sooooo unfair to men. LoL.

[MajorMitchell]

Further to my comments about the pro life/ prohibit abortion side taking a totalitarian position and the pro choice side taking a more freedom (of the individual to decide) based position.
Is it the Libertarians who embrace the principle of "freedoms for individuals to decide" ? So surely a libertarian would support the pro~choice side of this debate. Unless they are Libertarians who embrace the "Freedom of the masculine individuals to decide as well as only those women who dutifully comply with the views of the masculine majority" position.

[Octavious]

Why ? Firstly I am guided by the women in my family, they all believe women should have the option of abortion as well as adoption, in addition to the "have the baby" choice. They also strongly believe that abortion should be a public health service available to women.

Out of curiosity, do they believe that a woman should have the right to abort at any time during the pregnancy, or that it should be time limited (up to 20 weeks, say)? Because in my experience it is always time limited, as very late term pregnancies are considered immoral. The argument, then, is fundamentally no different in terms of misogyny to that of the pro-life crowd. "You have control over your body unless it is to do something I consider to be deeply wrong". All that differs between most pro lifers and pro choicers is the moral judgment over what is or isn't deeply wrong. The whole sexism argument is a nonsense.

[Durga]

omg no woman is going to willingly abort like 7 months into the pregnancy. can you imagine how much that would fuck up her body? what psycho would carry a fetus that far just to fuck herself up. if she's aborting that late it will be for very serious reasons and we CANNOT put limits on that. this is such a fucking non issue

[Octavious]

Saying it's a non issue doesn't make it so. The time limit is a pretty major issue, in fact. The likes of Portugal have a 10 week limit, many European nations have 12, the UK and Finland have 24. The likes of Malta, of course, have nil. The number of people who share your view that there should be no limits is a tiny minority, and it strikes me that there are a number of people, such as yourself, hijacking the mainstream pro choice opinion to promote your far more extreme position.

[Durga]

Saying it's a non issue doesn't make it so. The time limit is a pretty major issue, in fact. The likes of Portugal have a 10 week limit, many European nations have 12, the UK and Finland have 24. The likes of Malta, of course, have nil. The number of people who share your view that there should be no limits is a tiny minority, and it strikes me that there are a number of people, such as yourself, hijacking the mainstream pro choice opinion to promote your far more extreme position.

it is not a tiny majority oct lol - where are you getting that? what is your source? people compromising with anti-choicers doesn't mean that's what they believe should be the law.

[Octavious]

A gallup poll in 2018 put the support for abortions being legal in the final 3 months of pregnancy except in exceptional circumstances at 1 in 5 Americans (similar to UK law). I believe the most recent Marist poll says 3/4 of Americans want it limited to the first 3 months (similar to most EU nations). Personally I know zero people in favour of not having limits, with most in favour of the existing law, or making them less liberal.

[Durga]

A gallup poll in 2018 put the support for abortions being legal in the final 3 months of pregnancy except in exceptional circumstances at 1 in 5 Americans (similar to UK law). I believe the most recent Marist poll says 3/4 of Americans want it limited to the first 3 months (similar to most EU nations). Personally I know zero people in favour of not having limits, with most in favour of the existing law, or making them less liberal.

we run in different circles. and now you know me. hello. i am a human being. canada has no limits

[Durga]

its so arbitrary to say you want limits lol. esp since i already explained why women are not inclined to get late term abortions other than for health reasons.

and why even have limits if you think the fetus is a child? is there a special time when the fetus turns into a human being that isn't birth??? like what? 20 weeks? "I WANT LIMITS BECAUSE I WANT THEM AND SOMEHOW THIS SUITS MY MORALITY" is not a good opinion to have.

[Octavious]

we run in different circles. and now you know me. hello. i am a human being. canada has no limits

To a certain degree, I guess. You can only know somebody so well online, after all. I have a healthy degree of respect for your strength of argument and commitment to the game, but aside from that and a few of your political views, which make up only a small amount of a person, I wouldn't claim to know you.

I believe that a new born child is no different from the child shortly before birth in any meaningful sense. I believe that a recently fertilized egg is a long way short of human. There is a transition during pregnancy moving from one to the other, and at some stage the unborn becomes more human than not. The timing is messy and complicated, but such is life, and I firmly believe that the line that is drawn must be drawn by consensus. At the end of the day it is a moral judgment for society to take.

[Durga]

But you know I exist. I imagine you were saying you've never encountered someone with this point of view. But you have. Right here.

[Octavious]

I am aware you exist, but in reality I know you little more than I knew al swearengen, and I don't think any of us knew anything about the real him. But let's not get into a debate on semantics. I am aware that people exist that hold this view, I can even label a handful with a name, but of the people I know there are none.

[Octavious]

And to be completely precise, there are none that I know of. Of all the people I know who have expressed a view there are none, and I'm assuming that most of those who I know who have never expressed an opinion either support the status quo or have no particularly strong feelings either way. It is entirely possible that I know some people who believe as you do but have never mentioned it, but highly unlikely that there are more than a handful.

[MajorMitchell]

I did, rather boldly ask The Most Beautiful Fire Breathing MemSahib, Her Imperious Loveliness Indoors lying on a sofa eating cakes about time limits on abortion. Not sure if her sniff was an endearment or dismissive, but a sniff it was, and then eloquently "That's between the woman and her Doctors and none of your business"
There it is. Don't ask me to ask Princess Estelle. She's broody enough at present and it might be misinterpreted.

[Fluminator]

???

[flash2015]

I did, rather boldly ask The Most Beautiful Fire Breathing MemSahib, Her Imperious Loveliness Indoors lying on a sofa eating cakes about time limits on abortion. Not sure if her sniff was an endearment or dismissive, but a sniff it was, and then eloquently "That's between the woman and her Doctors and none of your business"
There it is. Don't ask me to ask Princess Estelle. She's broody enough at present and it might be misinterpreted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LEAAy44wnQ