Abortion sucks

[Senlac]

and who caries the burden of raising children in society? women x100000

But not necessarily.
My Brother’s wife quit the household (amusingly to pursue her career) leaving him with 3 wonderful daughters aged at the time 14, 12 & 9 to raise alone. He did a great job coincidentally & they all turned out wonderful women.

Both my sons moved into my home at 14 (lucky I love teenagers) with zero coercion from me. At no time did I shirk my financial or physical responsibility as a father, in fact I left an extremely well paid job in London to accommodate my ex-Wife’s preference of country of residence, specifically to be Dad until they were educated & in work. In my opinions Dad’s are more than chequebooks.

You see stereotypes of parental responsibilities are just that. Yes, women bear young & men don’t (that’ll probably change soon:-) but as far as being a parent, a job that last many years, the first 9 months is only a chapter in the book.
The fact that one is written by the mother shouldn’t exclude the other parent in this saga contributing fully on all aspects, including whether an abortion happens. I got married to have a family, not abortions. If that kind of fundamental fairness is excluded from the debate, no wonder no one ever finds a solution.

[Durga]

To be fair, assuming its a baby, I don't think the baby cares whether the person arguing for its right to life has a penis or not.
But yeah, men need to be held more accountable when potentially impregnating women.

i don't think the 'baby' cares about anything because
a) it's literally unborn
b) it has no independent thought/has not developed an ability to think
c) it cannot independently survive

i don't the 'baby' cares about its 'right to life' lmao

not that i even think a fetus is a baby. it absolutely isn't. but even entertaining that it is, it's not born, living and viable.

in the world that we prescribe some kind of bizarre ability to think to fetuses we're in a whole range of legal problems.

[Durga]

you cannot force someone to undergo a procedure because you may or may not get something out of it. your marriage entitles you to nothing, not to companionship, children, sex. nothing. And because **you** didn't shirk any responsibilities doesn't account for the countless men that do and the countless women who would suffer from that in the event they would be forced to carry to term. Not to mention any detriment in their careers and schooling.

[Durga]

ok now i'm leaving the politics section for another month bye

[Fluminator]

To be fair, assuming its a baby, I don't think the baby cares whether the person arguing for its right to life has a penis or not.
But yeah, men need to be held more accountable when potentially impregnating women.

i don't think the 'baby' cares about anything because
a) it's literally unborn
b) it has no independent thought/has not developed an ability to think
c) it cannot independently survive

i don't the 'baby' cares about its 'right to life' lmao

not that i even think a fetus is a baby. it absolutely isn't. but even entertaining that it is, it's not born, living and viable.

in the world that we prescribe some kind of bizarre ability to think to fetuses we're in a whole range of legal problems.

Where would be the line you draw before it has rights?

[Senlac]

you cannot force someone to undergo a procedure because you may or may not get something out of it. your marriage entitles you to nothing, not to companionship, children, sex. nothing. And because **you** didn't shirk any responsibilities doesn't account for the countless men that do and the countless women who would suffer from that in the event they would be forced to carry to term. Not to mention any detriment in their careers and schooling.

All of this is true. Some of it I’m happy is true, so causes sadness, but it’s still true. It’s also the case that these truths are part of the problem not the solution. I’ve always found the subject of abortion awful & immensely difficult. I find it surprising that folks are so sure of the perfection of their perspective, while discarding that of others. Oh, that’s part of the problem too I guess.

[orathaic]

To be fair, assuming its a baby, I don't think the baby cares whether the person arguing for its right to life has a penis or not.
But yeah, men need to be held more accountable when potentially impregnating women.

i don't think the 'baby' cares about anything because
a) it's literally unborn
b) it has no independent thought/has not developed an ability to think
c) it cannot independently survive

i don't the 'baby' cares about its 'right to life' lmao

not that i even think a fetus is a baby. it absolutely isn't. but even entertaining that it is, it's not born, living and viable.

in the world that we prescribe some kind of bizarre ability to think to fetuses we're in a whole range of legal problems.

Where would be the line you draw before it has rights?

Pretty simple, at the point where it can survive and enjoy those rights(the right to life mainly) independently; this being WAAAY before self-awareness develops, it should be a comfortable, practical approach to protecting the things about life that we actually value*.

Also, if men want to have some say, they should be aiming for artificial/donor wombs, and whatever research is needed to remove a fetus and implant it in their body. That way a woman can literally get rid of her unwanted pregnancy and the future father can act as an incubator...

*it is worth noting this debate comes down to, what do you value.
'life is sacred' is meaningless unless we have a solid definition of life, what qualities does it have, why do we as individuals and as societies care about life? Most of these questions are taken for granted, and not discussed outside of university philosophy courses, or hugely biased pro/anti-choice debates...

[Senlac]

“Also, if men want to have some say, they should be aiming for artificial/donor wombs, and whatever research is needed to remove a fetus and implant it in their body. That way a woman can literally get rid of her unwanted pregnancy and the future father can act as an incubator... ”

You over complicated it. If a man wants children without a female partner in the enterprise then egg donors, in vitro fertilisation & surrogate mothers are all proven technologies, but again it’s irrelevant to the abortion argument.

[orathaic]

“Also, if men want to have some say, they should be aiming for artificial/donor wombs, and whatever research is needed to remove a fetus and implant it in their body. That way a woman can literally get rid of her unwanted pregnancy and the future father can act as an incubator... ”

You over complicated it. If a man wants children without a female partner in the enterprise then egg donors, in vitro fertilisation & surrogate mothers are all proven technologies, but again it’s irrelevant to the abortion argument.

No I'm not. Those technologies are solutions to the problem of men wanting to have children.

Just as adoption is the solution to an unwanted child, not an unwanted pregnancy. Your proposing a solution to a separate (but related) problem.

Some MRAs argue that fathers should have to give permission to allow an abortion... Or some such. However unenforceable that might be.

[Senlac]

I’ll do my best to give a viewpoint on the concept of “unwanted pregnancies” & subsequent abortion that’s the best I can do. The wisdom of David is needed for this task.

Firstly framing the argument in terms of “rights” I believe is counter productive. I know the US Supreme Court considered the subject in this manner & in my view it was a fundamental error that has contributed to the problem not the solution.
As soon as you label it a “rights” issue then women claim primacy for obvious biological reasons and all others might as well not have an opinion because they’re gonna be ignored. You immediately invite advocates for the rights of the unborn & rights of the Fathers. This makes the debate adversarial & unlikely to achieve acceptable resolution to many (possibly the majority).

I believe the nation framing the laws for their people needs to reach consensus on the “correct” actions to take under various circumstances. I doubt unanimity is achievable but consensus should be. All scenarios could be debated separately & here are a few of the more contentious ones, impregnation by rape, or incest, pregnancies that are life threatening (or could result in serious impairment of quality of life for the mother/unborn).
A member of our family suffered an accidental spinal injury, which makes pregnancy very perilous if ever attempted. Lots more could be added.

If a verdict on each instance is achieved then the “correct” actions then get taken, enforced by law just like anything else, in supremacy to any individual objections. For example an abortion conducted illegally in a situation in which society reached consensus it shouldn’t be done, would in effect be murder & we already have a myriad of laws on that subject & wouldn’t need more.

To justify my position as best I can I’d say the following. “Rights” have become a entitlement problem in society. I currently live in a nation largely dominated by the very old teachings of the Catholic Church (I was not raised one) & I find many of the resultant societal beliefs comfortable to experience, because they still believe in “doing the right thing as opposed to the wrong thing”. I’ve noticed that as a people they tend to be less selfish, not focussing on their “rights” & more caring towards others because that’s the right thing. Family is sacrosanct & the kids are amazing compared to the self entitled brats I experienced for the previous 20 years in western nations (UK&USA).

Abortion isn’t the only problem I believe emanates from emphasis on entitlement & rights. Until there is a greater emphasis on doing the morally correct actions as decided by society, then problems will result from selfish behaviours.

That’s the best I can do. If you disagree that is of course your privilege:-)

[Octavious]

Also, if men want to have some say, they should be aiming for artificial/donor wombs, and whatever research is needed to remove a fetus and implant it in their body

For someone who believes men shouldn't have a say, you sure are saying quite a lot :). Out of curiosity, what's your basis for believing men shouldn't have a say? In my mind the best case outcome is if the decision is agreed by both potential parents. Ultimately the potential mother should have the final call in case of disagreement, or if the potential father is unavailable for whatever reason, but surely a consensus would be the ideal to aim for?

[orathaic]

Also, if men want to have some say, they should be aiming for artificial/donor wombs, and whatever research is needed to remove a fetus and implant it in their body

For someone who believes men shouldn't have a say, you sure are saying quite a lot :). Out of curiosity, what's your basis for believing men shouldn't have a say? In my mind the best case outcome is if the decision is agreed by both potential parents. Ultimately the potential mother should have the final call in case of disagreement, or if the potential father is unavailable for whatever reason, but surely a consensus would be the ideal to aim for?

It is a potential father's role (if he is involved, as opposed to sperm donations, by whatever means) to support the pregnant person's decision. They can offer advice, whatever they want, and ideally this will lead to a concensus. But we're not debating ideal situations. When everything is great we don't have crisis pregnancies.

Having a say is fine, you can say all you want, so long as you support their final decision. The basis is, they are the one taking all the risks; it is their body which will be changed drastically even if things go well. And yes I have recently gone through this. No-one should be forced to go through pregnancy.

You can look at it as a state recognising some abstract 'rights' or you can look at it as recognising the pregnant people have always done whatever they felt necessary. And the state can support them with medical professionals, or ban abortions and make them unsafe, unreliable, and add stress to what is already a crisis.

I do not believe this a positive thing for society. I am glad to see ireland is currently looking at making access to contraception more widely available; because free contraception (at point of use) will hopefully mean less crisis pregnancies in the firdt place. And this coming from a country which banned the sale of contraception until the early 90s. We have come very far in my lifetime.

[Octavious]

The basis is, they are the one taking all the risks;

Now this is utter nonsense, as you well know. The woman has the lions share of the physical risks associated with the mechanics of pregnancy, sure. Both parents can shoulder a significant mental health risk. You have said yourself that different people value the unborn child to greater or lesser extents. To those who value it highly the risks are huge. There have been countless examples of women going to extreme lengths to protect their unborn child, willing putting their own lives in great danger to give their child a chance. There's no reason to believe men are any different.

It is a potential father's role (if he is involved, as opposed to sperm donations, by whatever means) to support the pregnant person's decision.

Frankly that comment is as unhelpful to this debate as saying it's the woman's role to have the baby. I thought your entire argument was built around people having the freedom to live as they wish and not be subject to the roles imposed on them by society?

[flash2015]

The basis is, they are the one taking all the risks;

Now this is utter nonsense, as you well know. The woman has the lions share of the physical risks associated with the mechanics of pregnancy, sure. Both parents can shoulder a significant mental health risk. You have said yourself that different people value the unborn child to greater or lesser extents. To those who value it highly the risks are huge. There have been countless examples of women going to extreme lengths to protect their unborn child, willing putting their own lives in great danger to give their child a chance. There's no reason to believe men are any different.

You are the one speaking nonsense here. Whilst men can get quite emotionally involved, women's mental issues can often be tied to rapid changes in hormonal levels, which when they go wrong can lead to things like antenatal or postpartum depression. Yes, men can have some hormonal response too if they are actively involved with their child but it is nothing compared to what happens to the mother.

On the physical side pregnancy has always been a risky business for the mother. A hundred years ago in the USA you used to see 0.6% of births lead to death of the mother (higher in less developed countries). Given that women used to have many more children than now, that was a lot of women that died. Things are a lot better now but in the US there are still close to 1000 women that die each year in childbirth...and that is not counting the countless women that go through significant complications which take a massive physical toll on their bodies.

We can waive this away as minor but to many women this is a big f*** deal. I just don't see how we as a society can force someone through the legal system to take those risks. You can say "oh, you shouldn't have had sex, deal with the consequences" because this just isn't realistic (especially since a large proportion of these abortions, especially outside the US, come from married couples). And whilst contraception helps (when it isn't being blocked by fundamentalists) no contraception can guarantee 100% that pregnancy won't occur. The Catholic Church advocated rhythm method is notoriously unreliable.

[Octavious]

So to put that into perspective, childbirth kills approximately twice as many Americans as those killed falling out of bed, and considerably less people than those killed as a result of accident whilst sending a text message? Unless there are underlying health issues it seems to me that it isn't a big fucking deal, nor even a particularly large celibate deal. I do indeed waive it away as minor.


Which isn't to say that pregnancy doesn't have a very significant impact on a woman's life, and the following motherhood obviously has an even greater impact. Which is largely why am in favour of legal abortions. But fear of death by pregnancy is a non argument except in a very few special cases, and as big a nonsense as the idea that men should have no right to express their wishes for their potential offspring, or be excluded from the argument by virtue of not having a womb.

[flash2015]

So to put that into perspective, childbirth kills approximately twice as many Americans as those killed falling out of bed, and considerably less people than those killed as a result of accident whilst sending a text message? Unless there are underlying health issues it seems to me that it isn't a big fucking deal, nor even a particularly large celibate deal. I do indeed waive it away as minor.


Which isn't to say that pregnancy doesn't have a very significant impact on a woman's life, and the following motherhood obviously has an even greater impact. Which is largely why am in favour of legal abortions. But fear of death by pregnancy is a non argument except in a very few special cases, and as big a nonsense as the idea that men should have no right to express their wishes for their potential offspring, or be excluded from the argument by virtue of not having a womb.

Are people pressuring governments to force people to text message while driving in busy traffic irrespective of whether people want to accept the risks? I don't remember that. And again death is only the worst scenario. Many, many women experience significant health complications from pregnancy (which I have seen personally through friends and family). That you discount it as "minor" suggests you just don't understand.

I don't think anyone is saying that men can't express their wishes, just that the person having to carry the baby to term has the ultimate decision. I have sympathy for Seniac's scenario because ultimately it sounds like his wife was trying to "cut off her nose to spite her face". But I don't believe at all that this is the general case. I have known multiple women who have gone through abortion (e.g. my former girlfriend was raped and had an abortion) who have never had any issues or regrets about having the abortion.

[orathaic]

So to put that into perspective, childbirth kills approximately twice as many Americans as those killed falling out of bed, and considerably less people than those killed as a result of accident whilst sending a text message? Unless there are underlying health issues it seems to me that it isn't a big fucking deal, nor even a particularly large celibate deal. I do indeed waive it away as minor.

Those comparisons are subject to a huge selection bias.

Nearly every person in the US gets out of bed at least once per day, meaning there are over 300 million times 365 events, of which (say) 1000 result in deaths.
Compared to a significantly smaller number of women (~60 million women between the ages of 15 and 44), of which let's be overly generous, and say 50% are pregnant at most once per year.

Meaning ~30 million events; with approximately the same deaths?

30 million vs 118 billion. That makes getting out of bed nearly 4000 times safer than being pregnant (and remember the numbers for dieing after getting a out of bed are probably mostly the result of old age... For the majority of the population getting out of bed is actually much safer than this).

Just so you know.... Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[orathaic]

Slightly unrelated: but as my partner just pointed in the US maternal are increasing; the only country in the OECD where this is the case. But given that it can cost about 5000 in the US (if you do have insurance) - so poor people can't afford to give birth in hospitals...

That probably has a pretty significant impact on the maternal deaths (in the same way that the risk of getting out of bed is skewed towards the elderly, the risk of death in childbirth is likely skewed towards the poor and/or poorly educated).

I am proud to live in a country which provides free maternity care the whole way through pregnancy.

[Octavious]

But I don't believe at all that this is the general case. I have known multiple women who have gone through abortion (e.g. my former girlfriend was raped and had an abortion) who have never had any issues or regrets about having the abortion.

That's a bold statement. How do you know it's true?

I ask this as I knew my grandmother very well, but nowhere near as well as my mum did, and her even less than my grandad. And despite this all of us were in complete ignorance of her previous husband and two children that she was forced to give up. Complete ignorance, in fact, until shortly before her death when she began to lose control of her memory and was clearly extremely distressed by people who we'd never heard of. Women are incredibly good at hiding pain and regret. Hell, so are men for that matter.

So, all these women you know who have gone through abortion without any issues or regrets. How certain are you that that's true?

[Octavious]

Slightly unrelated: but as my partner just pointed in the US maternal are increasing; the only country in the OECD where this is the case. But given that it can cost about 5000 in the US (if you do have insurance) - so poor people can't afford to give birth in hospitals...

That probably has a pretty significant impact on the maternal deaths (in the same way that the risk of getting out of bed is skewed towards the elderly, the risk of death in childbirth is likely skewed towards the poor and/or poorly educated).

I am proud to live in a country which provides free maternity care the whole way through pregnancy.

I have to agree. The American health care system has many serious flaws.