Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

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ChippeRock
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#21 Post by ChippeRock » Mon May 14, 2018 4:58 pm

jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:52 pm
We don't want people doing this. We want them to email the mods if they notice an impending NMR instead.
So they are supposed to email the Mods, in a regular game, hope for a response in the next few minutes before the NMR actually happens. And than sit on a paused game for several days while they try getting the NMRed player to submit orders.

And in addition to that the offending player's RR won't be affected so other people won't know there's an unreliable player?

If the NMR happens, you take advantage of it because it significantly helps that country's enemies and if your an ally who has no clue it's going to happen your screwed.
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Tom Bombadil
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#22 Post by Tom Bombadil » Mon May 14, 2018 4:59 pm

I mean, I don't blame you for taking advantage of a CD when you see it coming. I just think losing the ability for any power to see it coming increases the quality of the game as a whole.

VillageIdiot
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#23 Post by VillageIdiot » Mon May 14, 2018 5:03 pm

jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 2:39 pm
Additionally, Tournament Directors in games can now post in global which will show their message with a "Game Director:" bold pre-face that cannot be replicated by anyone in the game.
I’m very bummed I never thought to spoof the Tournament Director before this!! That’s freakin’ hilarious, did somebody actually pull this off??

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#24 Post by ghug » Mon May 14, 2018 5:05 pm

TDs just couldn't post in games at all before, which is why we have so many non-mod mods right now.

ChippeRock
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#25 Post by ChippeRock » Mon May 14, 2018 5:09 pm

jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:52 pm
We don't want people doing this. We want them to email the mods if they notice an impending NMR instead.
So I am supposed to email the Mods, in a regular game, hope for a response in the next few minutes before the NMR actually happens. And than sit on a paused game for several days while they try getting the NMRed player to submit orders.

If you don't want NMRs, fix the god damn NMR problem. Don't just put a piece of tape on it and say it's fixed.

And in addition to that the offending player's RR won't be affected so other people won't know there's an unreliable player.

If the NMR happens, you take advantage of it because it significantly helps that country's enemies and if your an ally who has no clue it's going to happen your screwed.

I feel like this isn't really needed for normal live games because all 7 players will be online at the same time.

As Kremmen stated it'll now be a pain in the ass to find out who's submitting retreat orders. It's also going to suck PMing someone because you won't know whether their online or not.

Again, I think this should be optional for Anon games. If a tournament director wants it, go right ahead, but if a normal player doesn't want it, he should have the ability to not need it.
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Tom Bombadil
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#26 Post by Tom Bombadil » Mon May 14, 2018 5:12 pm

ChippeRock wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:09 pm

If you don't want NMRs, fix the god damn NMR problem. Don't just put a piece of tape on it and say it's fixed.

Mods are working on that right after curing cancer, global warming, and poverty
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Kremmen
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#27 Post by Kremmen » Mon May 14, 2018 5:13 pm

Tom Bombadil wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:59 pm
I mean, I don't blame you for taking advantage of a CD when you see it coming. I just think losing the ability for any power to see it coming increases the quality of the game as a whole.
I can't agree with this. Seeing it coming makes it more likely that the power will be hammered. One of the most common results of a CD is some idiot leaping in, who has done so only because it was the only game available immediately (someone even took over with zero units in a game I was in recently!) that they had enough points for. (And, yes, this would be largely fixed by removing the change whereby takeovers became free.) This means that the country behaves totally differently to previously and the game balance is worse than if the country had just been continuing to NMR.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#28 Post by Tom Bombadil » Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 pm

I get where you are coming from Chippee in that you liked taking advantage of NMRs when you saw them coming. But it can also screw you when everyone sees an NMR on the other side of the board and can capitalize while you can do nothing.

This makes NMRs have a dramatically smaller impact on a game, which I believe most would agree is a good thing.
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Tom Bombadil
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#29 Post by Tom Bombadil » Mon May 14, 2018 5:15 pm

While frustrating at times dealing with new players, I will take a real player over a CD 100% of the time.
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goldfinger0303
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#30 Post by goldfinger0303 » Mon May 14, 2018 5:39 pm

ghug wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:05 pm
TDs just couldn't post in games at all before, which is why we have so many non-mod mods right now.
As a non-mods mod, please don't take away my mod status. :cry:

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#31 Post by ghug » Mon May 14, 2018 5:44 pm

You're fully welcome to not report impending NMRs to the mods if you prefer. This just limits the ability to take advantage of them on top of that.

We're disinclined to add things as game creation options, because too many options makes it harder to get games going. This solution is clearly better as far as tournament and semi-anonymous play goes, and leveling the playing field a bit on NMRs is seen by the team as a positive, though that's apparently not a universal opinion.
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Foxcastle
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#32 Post by Foxcastle » Mon May 14, 2018 5:45 pm

I liked being able to see if the game was "waiting on me," in which case I would ready up. Also, it was helpful for managing timing in games with phases less than 24 hours—i.e., being able to choose to ready up knowing the game would process immediately and then put in orders, or let the clock run out on the phase so that I wasn't short on time before the next phase ended.

This probably means I will let games run longer rather than readying up. But if it helps fix a problem with people breaking anonymity and NMRs, then I'll adjust.
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goldfinger0303
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#33 Post by goldfinger0303 » Mon May 14, 2018 5:49 pm

Kremmen wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:13 pm
Tom Bombadil wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:59 pm
I mean, I don't blame you for taking advantage of a CD when you see it coming. I just think losing the ability for any power to see it coming increases the quality of the game as a whole.
I can't agree with this. Seeing it coming makes it more likely that the power will be hammered. One of the most common results of a CD is some idiot leaping in, who has done so only because it was the only game available immediately (someone even took over with zero units in a game I was in recently!) that they had enough points for. (And, yes, this would be largely fixed by removing the change whereby takeovers became free.) This means that the country behaves totally differently to previously and the game balance is worse than if the country had just been continuing to NMR.
So, now it's less likely that your ally will be hammered, since your enemy can't see it coming. This gives you more time to holler at them or ask the mods to replace. Or, it leaves the country in a better position, which would attract a better quality replacement. If anything, as an ally you'd have a greater advantage from this system. You're presumably talking every turn, so if they go silent and you see someone hasn't entered orders, chances are it could be them, and you can prepare. Your enemies would presumably be speaking less, so might not notice the silence

Also, before takeovers became free, people just didn't take over games unless there was a great chance of getting to the draw. In my opinion that's worse. I would always rather have someone at the helm, even a complete idiot, than no one.

goldfinger0303
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#34 Post by goldfinger0303 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:00 pm

ChippeRock wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:09 pm
jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:52 pm
We don't want people doing this. We want them to email the mods if they notice an impending NMR instead.
If you don't want NMRs, fix the god damn NMR problem. Don't just put a piece of tape on it and say it's fixed.

As Kremmen stated it'll now be a pain in the ass to find out who's submitting retreat orders. It's also going to suck PMing someone because you won't know whether their online or not.

Again, I think this should be optional for Anon games. If a tournament director wants it, go right ahead, but if a normal player doesn't want it, he should have the ability to not need it.
You're underestimating how big of a problem this was for gunboat and tournament games. We've had gunboat players message others in their games to ready up. The measures I've installed for this World Cup went into place because last tournament, the local village idiot went around and figured out everyone's identities in every game, and that gave his team an overwhelming advantage. Just as simple as "Oh, X sent me press. Who is on right now?" and boom, anonymity is gone. Or "X just entered orders. Who is on right now?" It caused a host of problems. That's why I made sure not to let role assignments slip during this tournament, to make it just a little harder to do. But that's why you see a whole bunch of games right now that are, essentially, over but people are drawing out the reveal. Anonymity problems have plagued every tournament and invitational game on the site.

As for the NMR problem, it's never gonna go away. That's just a part of playing diplomacy on the internet. Even in veteran tournaments like the WC, there have been dozens of NMRs prevented. And wait-for-orders is too easily abused for common games.

I don't know why everyone's complaining about retreats. Just look at the board and you can see easily enough who has retreats. But maybe that could be a doable fix. Idk, I'm not a Dev.

ChippeRock
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#35 Post by ChippeRock » Mon May 14, 2018 6:02 pm

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:49 pm
Kremmen wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:13 pm
Tom Bombadil wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:59 pm
I mean, I don't blame you for taking advantage of a CD when you see it coming. I just think losing the ability for any power to see it coming increases the quality of the game as a whole.
I can't agree with this. Seeing it coming makes it more likely that the power will be hammered. One of the most common results of a CD is some idiot leaping in, who has done so only because it was the only game available immediately (someone even took over with zero units in a game I was in recently!) that they had enough points for. (And, yes, this would be largely fixed by removing the change whereby takeovers became free.) This means that the country behaves totally differently to previously and the game balance is worse than if the country had just been continuing to NMR.
So, now it's less likely that your ally will be hammered, since your enemy can't see it coming. This gives you more time to holler at them or ask the mods to replace. Or, it leaves the country in a better position, which would attract a better quality replacement. If anything, as an ally you'd have a greater advantage from this system. You're presumably talking every turn, so if they go silent and you see someone hasn't entered orders, chances are it could be them, and you can prepare. Your enemies would presumably be speaking less, so might not notice the silence

Also, before takeovers became free, people just didn't take over games unless there was a great chance of getting to the draw. In my opinion that's worse. I would always rather have someone at the helm, even a complete idiot, than no one.
Your making the game rely more on luck. If someone stabs the NMRing player at the perfect time they've got several SCs. If your an enemy and your already trying to make a play on several SCs than you'll get them. Meanwhile as an ally your supporting moves that won't happen and you might yourself lose several SCs because your ally NMRed.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#36 Post by Tom Bombadil » Mon May 14, 2018 6:18 pm

I would argue that you are making the game rely less on luck.

Instead of helping only the player who is online right before the NMR (while I may be sleeping because its 3am my time), this causes all players to be unaware of which power is the one NMRing, and thus does not give an enormous advantage to the people who are online as the phase is about to end.
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goldfinger0303
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#37 Post by goldfinger0303 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:48 pm

I don't see how someone with a perfect stab would be affected positively or negatively consistently. Yeah, sometimes the NMR will net them CDs that they might not normally get. But other times they might be relying on the NMR'ing player to move out of a territory and they don't. And I don't see how this makes any difference for enemies. If anything, it might fool them into playing more conservatively than they would otherwise. For example, if Germany and France have been doing supported bounces in Bur, and France NMRs, Germany would likely support himself into Bur. But if Germany had been able to see the NMR coming, he could slide into Bur *and Pic. You see what I'm saying?

It's less making the game rely on luck and more decreasing the ability of people on at the end of the phase to sabotage the game.

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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#38 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:52 pm

And one of the enhancements we hope to eventually get working is a grace extension setup for each player in a game which would give each player 1 "free" NMR by extending the phase for them (though still reducing their Reliability Rating). So having that tied into these new changes should help reduce NMR's and help reduce their impact when they do happen. But, if you absolutely hate the new changes, you're welcome to play non-anon.
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peterwiggin
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#39 Post by peterwiggin » Mon May 14, 2018 7:00 pm

This is great. We finally have truly anonymous games. Get that nmr-grace period thing I've been pushing for for like 4 years going, and I can finally get my Bounced-style anonymous gameplay without nmrs on a site that actually has players and a community. :-D

In all seriousness, thank you jmo for the hard work.
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VillageIdiot
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Re: Anonymous Changes and Online Indicators

#40 Post by VillageIdiot » Tue May 15, 2018 1:18 am

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:00 pm
The measures I've installed for this World Cup went into place because last tournament, the local village idiot went around and figured out everyone's identities in every game, and that gave his team an overwhelming advantage.
Are you trying to credit the victory of a past World Cup tournament to one sole mysterious evil genius level player?

You and your crazy conspiracy theories.

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