Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

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Tugster
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#21 Post by Tugster » Sun May 05, 2019 4:06 pm

I do not entirely agree with the idea that these rules should not apply to Chaos games. On the one hand, it is going to make starting a Chaos game kind of slow and painful, pause, boot, replace, rinse repeat, etc. until 34 people are there that actually intend to play. Short term pain, long term gain, but that can be said of the change overall, we are going to experience in the short term delays, crashes and bugs, but long term, we will have a vastly better gaming site. We will end up with more reliable players.
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eric.grinnell
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#22 Post by eric.grinnell » Sun May 05, 2019 4:17 pm

When you say “short term pain” ... you’re not using the term “short term” correctly at all.

When you have somebody at one dot... and they never made it to two dots... and everyone around them has three, four, or more dots... the odds of them NMRing is very high. And, shrug, that’s part of the game.

Meanwhile, if in 1901 you have a delay in both spring and fall of 1901... then, starting around 1903 or so, you have multiple seasons in a row where turns get delays and rest another deadline, in order to accommodate all the loser punks stuck at one that can’t bothered to follow through on your game... you will end up with games that crawl.

And no one likes that. So what you will end up with, in reality, in that thing you called “the long run” is.... in the long run, chaos games won’t get started as often, and the ones that do start, your most reliable players will never join, because they know they’re going to be a train wreck.

<sarcasm font> I mean.... maybe you’re right. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that THREE CHAOS games that I am in have already been paused because of this new rule.

Nothing to see here... move along. <end sarcasm font>
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jmo1121109
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#23 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun May 05, 2019 4:59 pm

What you're seeing now in chaos games is due to the initial migration. In normal chaos games you're going to see a large number of people using their excuse on the first turn. That said, if a group of people want to join a chaos game with 4 excused missed turns then all the power too them. Personally I'd only ever join a Chaos or World game with 0 excuses, but it's entirely up to the people who make them to figure out what they want to do. And up to you on if you want to join based on the rules they have.
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jmo1121109
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#24 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun May 05, 2019 5:05 pm

I think I fixed the bug crashing games, so I uncrashed them, but I won't know for sure until more games get back to that point since it isn't reproducing locally for me.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#25 Post by Foxcastle » Sun May 05, 2019 5:27 pm

I very much agree with jmo that I would never join a chaos game with more than 0 excuses, and would also never create a chaos game with more than 0 excuses.

Since there's obviously a lot of demand for the new variant—and so, I'd expect, additional frustration at the delays—perhaps the creators of the games that didn't get a chance to set the number of excuses could have the chance to make that decision now and have it retroactively applied.
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Tugster
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#26 Post by Tugster » Sun May 05, 2019 6:07 pm

that's certainly the answer, create Chaos games and World games with ZERO excused missed turns, which means, the second someone NMRs, they get booted instantly, that's the answer. We cannot change the ones already in place, but that will certainly get rid of the riff raff very quickly.
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bo_sox48
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#27 Post by bo_sox48 » Sun May 05, 2019 6:48 pm

The purpose of this implementation is to allow you to do exactly that. No matter what you prefer, missing phases due to powers being in CD is effectively eliminated as every position, good or bad, that I have opened up since we made taking CD positions a couple of years ago has been replaced in a few hours, if not more quickly than that. That will continue to be the case going forward, so any open positions will likely be filled well before the phase ends. This is an amazing change for webDiplomacy and all of those who contributed but especially jmo and tobi, who authored, tested, and debugged the huge majority of the code that went into this feature, deserve some love for making this happen.

Personally, the only time I will play with excused turns is in live games as sometimes people need a few extra minutes for one reason or another. Keeping game flow as smooth as possible, even if that means replacing a player with someone new, is one of the core components of a good online Diplomacy game.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#28 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Sun May 05, 2019 7:14 pm

eric.grinnell wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:17 pm
When you say “short term pain” ... you’re not using the term “short term” correctly at all.

When you have somebody at one dot... and they never made it to two dots... and everyone around them has three, four, or more dots... the odds of them NMRing is very high. And, shrug, that’s part of the game.

Meanwhile, if in 1901 you have a delay in both spring and fall of 1901... then, starting around 1903 or so, you have multiple seasons in a row where turns get delays and rest another deadline, in order to accommodate all the loser punks stuck at one that can’t bothered to follow through on your game... you will end up with games that crawl.

And no one likes that. So what you will end up with, in reality, in that thing you called “the long run” is.... in the long run, chaos games won’t get started as often, and the ones that do start, your most reliable players will never join, because they know they’re going to be a train wreck.

<sarcasm font> I mean.... maybe you’re right. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that THREE CHAOS games that I am in have already been paused because of this new rule.

Nothing to see here... move along. <end sarcasm font>
Just don't join 1+ excuse Chaos games then? Start your own with zero excuses?

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#29 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun May 05, 2019 7:21 pm

The other important thing to keep in mind is as time passes people who use excused delays consistently will end up with an rr too low to join high reliability games so putting 1 excuse on an rr 95% game probably means you won’t see those excused delays being used

FlaviusAetius
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#30 Post by FlaviusAetius » Sun May 05, 2019 9:32 pm

so basically, dont be the first one to join a game anymores?
Thats what it has turned too actually.
Why be one of the initial people to start a game, when you can easily join a game with someone already in a good position and the bonus to it, you have to spend no DC coins!

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#31 Post by FlaviusAetius » Sun May 05, 2019 9:33 pm

Thats what Im experiencing in my live game right now, normally France would of been punished for NMRing... Now they get to dominate :/

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#32 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun May 05, 2019 9:39 pm

You’re gonna have to explain that more clearly, not getting what you mean

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#33 Post by Durga » Sun May 05, 2019 9:41 pm

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:32 pm
so basically, dont be the first one to join a game anymores?
Thats what it has turned too actually.
Why be one of the initial people to start a game, when you can easily join a game with someone already in a good position and the bonus to it, you have to spend no DC coins!
Feel free to try this strategy and see if it works for you

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#34 Post by Squigs44 » Sun May 05, 2019 9:43 pm

I think he is saying that he is only going to join spots that are vacated by someone who has CD'd. Yes, this is a good way to get points. No, this is not something most people enjoy. If that is the strategy you want, go for it.

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#35 Post by FlaviusAetius » Sun May 05, 2019 9:45 pm

Squigs44 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:43 pm
I think he is saying that he is only going to join spots that are vacated by someone who has CD'd. Yes, this is a good way to get points. No, this is not something most people enjoy. If that is the strategy you want, go for it.
I mean in one of my games, there was no penalty, the country wasn't even doing THAT bad, thats my issue.
When I joined games, it was like I had to climb a mountain restore things, it was fun.
Now I can't do that, and I feel like there's going to be a lot of games more than before that you can join to get easy stuff

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#36 Post by FlaviusAetius » Sun May 05, 2019 9:46 pm

I know one dude in of my games said to join a game you use to have to pay half the DC, it would raise the pot, and give them stake in the game, I think we could do something like that idk
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cdazz30
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#37 Post by cdazz30 » Sun May 05, 2019 11:22 pm

Great work on this, but I think the only downfall is players who know they will be eliminated at various stages of the game can just not enter orders and delay the game for everyone else.

Any thoughts or discussions on how to prevent this from happening? Maybe remove the excused miss for anyone with fewer than the starting number of supply centers they began the game with?

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#38 Post by 90kicvesb » Mon May 06, 2019 12:22 am

I was part of today's live game which was delayed 9 times for excused missed turns. It was frustrating, but without the new system, the game would most likely have been drawn/canceled very early and that's even less fun. Once some time passes and people's RRs become meaningful, the update should be a clearer improvement.
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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#39 Post by FlaviusAetius » Mon May 06, 2019 12:56 am

I can even testify, I had to use one of mine during that, and I won and was an original player

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Re: Changed RR, Missed Turns, and Game Create

#40 Post by bo_sox48 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:25 am

There are a number of comments in this thread that would be answered by committing to only joining/creating/playing games with 0 excused turns. You aren't required to play games with excused turns.

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