M1007 — "Mafia, She Wrote" Game Thread

[teacon7]

@vash lemme re-read that. I mostly townread ND though. What do you think of moscow?

[VashtaNeurotic]

Moscow's posts don't strike me as scummy tbh, but he does fit my day 1 criteria for suspect

[teacon7]

I mean if anyone wanted to i'd go to nd but i'm not swapping if it'll just make a bunch of small wagons. Also is no one gonna comment on the case I made.

Okay so ... lmk if I read your case rightly

The idea of d1 being scum v scum wagons makes a certain amount of sense. seems to me like a prime candidate would have been durga in that scenario though, right? she tried to create motion... onto like, percy. which didn't happen.

Percy didn't move at all, but I think he's on dialup satphone from the bush or something, so he probably wasn't even online. was vapor/flav online at EoD1?

But you're suggesting that a) there was bussing d1, that b) ND bussed damo in self defense, and that c) one of teacon/emc/moscow also bussed.

Am I representing you accurately?

ND moving to damo in self defense seems NAI to me. town!ND doesn't know damo's, but does know his own alignment, so I can't really scumread a self-defense move.

teacon/emc/moscow moving to damo would also have to be a bus then, bussing the player who didn't show up. this framework seems to exonerate teacon, since his move broke the tie. emc moved to damo afterwards and made the vote almost guaranteed (vapor/percy/moscow could have shifted things if they'd all been online and voted ND). As is, moscow then halfheartedly follows onto damo to seal the deal.

If we grant the hypothesis that ND/damo was scum v scum, then it looks like there are increasing levels of guilt among teacon/emc/moscow, because damo swinging looks more and more certain.

I'll point out that this fits perfectly with my assessment of moscow's play: he's been going with the flow the ENTIRE game, and isn't really contributing anything new (even if he shows up d5 or even now to start arguing, doesn't that seem like... a response to getting called out, rather than trying to find scum on his own?). if damo/ND was scum, then it seems like moscow is the most likely next target.

tbf, I've got a scumread on moscow already, independent of my feelings on ND. the case is on page 87 + inclusion in the emc/moscow d1 "safety bus." It's weird that when I brought up moscow, ND changed the subject to emc immediately, and started throwing around abusive rhetoric at me for being "dense." but w/e I can't complain that ND has his own cases for his own reasons. Good for him, right?

Otherwise, I don't see much against ND that isn't based on the "d1 was scum v scum wagons" hypothesis. Was there more? his d1 felt great.

ND has publicly been townreading me for a while. I'm pleased of course. He's a real bud for recognizing my meta. He (and percy) are gonna look great for it when I flip town.

imo, a good litmus test would be to lynch moscow and see how things look afterwards. I'm obviously not excited about being lynched today.

@Vash - Why are you on me again? move to moscow with me?

[teacon7]

he does fit my day 1 criteria for suspect

What was your d1 criteria?

tbh, it's not so much overtly scummy (like, for example, flav all game) as that he's made himself so forgettable. go with the flow. make no waves. ride the cheapest, uh, wagon. sheep other people's arguments to glory.

[teacon7]

@emc I see you're online. what do you think of my argument?

[e.m.c^42]

@emc I see you're online. what do you think of my argument?

I sort of agree with the "easy to with flow", but Moscow's meta changed quite bit probably since you last played with him - imo he's more active and pushy with his own reads as scum, and lurks to high heaven with the occasional effort when town lol.

[FlaviusAetius]

Yea I saw that too last game @emc, in the beginning, Moscow seemed like a scum, now he doesn't. Simple as that, why you pushing him all of a sudden teacon?
Also teacon you keep pushing the idea that lurking is AI, or at least you keep asking people that question.
Here's a good answer to it;
There's probably one lurking scum and one actual talkative scum at this point.
Let's get the talkative one first, no? The one trying to make wagons, shall we?
The one named teacon.

[MoscowFleet]

If you look at his play over the course of the entire game. What exactly has he done?

I see what you're saying, but tbf, moscow hasn't exactly contributed much original thought to this game either.

• d1 he landed on vapor for "posting nothing of substance," then switched to damo once the lynch was inescapable.
  he did defend damo d1, though he wasn't alone. xorx took issue with my comment not moscow's. MF looked pretty town to me d1.
• d2 moscow vanishes. he voted midway through, voting for durga (who at that point was in the lead already).
• d3 he made a lot of sense and voted xorx. I can't complain about his reasoning there. but knowing we were TvT, it strikes me that he could easily look reasonable in picking one of us, and pushing me for the next day.
• d4 he comes out against me with the "there's one scum between them" line of reasoning. While imo I'm still a quite viable lynch candidate for the sake of clarity, it bugs me that he's not considered "what if it was TvT?" (I now know that it was TvT, but you'll find that out in a bit). Really, in what universe is it a good idea as scum to take on town xorx like that?
• after I flip town, he's said he's going to angle for flav. while I see flav as pretty scummy, I also see him as a player that would get scumread as either alignment, just based on how he's talking.

All told, I don't think Moscow is nearly as town as he seems, because a) every day this game he's taken the path of least resistance, and voted with whatever the consensus seems to be. b) he's largely disappeared for certain phases of the game, as correlate with mafia interests: don't stop fights from happening. In addition, c) it strikes me that moscow is capable of more creative and investigative thinking than he's done this game... in vote posts he's largely just summarized the arguments of others that sound convincing to him. It's not just that people townread him for making sense, it's that he's repeating others so we generally forget he's there.

If he's scum, he's playing an excellent game.

This is bullshit. Path of least resistance wouldn’t have been voting Xorxes yesterday when it looked to be dead in the water.

“d3 he made a lot of sense and voted xorx. I can't complain about his reasoning there. but knowing we were TvT, it strikes me that he could easily look reasonable in picking one of us, and pushing me for the next day.”

Read that again objectively. Probably the most conf biasy thing I’ve ever heard. I make a lot of sense, have good reasoning, but obviously it’s just me playing a great scum game? You’re better than this Teacon.

As for the three points you mention: a) is completely false, as I mentioned above. When I voted Xorxes, you were the only vote on him. b) is irl stuff and NAI. I remember in another post you said something along the lines of “unless he has a family member dying he’s scummy”. Relax. C) is half true. I admit many of my posts have relied heavily on the work of others. But following from the last point, I don’t really have much choice when I haven’t participated in some phases a lot. On days when I have posted fairly often (like day 1), this hasn’t happened.

I absolutely agree that everyone needs to be scrutinized this close to lylo. Nobody gets a free pass. But your “push” on me basically confirms that you’re scum to me. Reading and forming conclusions is much different from having a goal in mind (scumread Moscow) and going from there.

[e.m.c^42]

Teacon is putting in so much effort to actually discuss various reads that if it wasn't for xorxes, he'd be a pretty solidish townread.

[e.m.c^42]

but, he seems to be a non-emotive player too

Hmm.

[teacon7]

I sort of agree with the "easy to with flow", but Moscow's meta changed quite bit probably since you last played with him - imo he's more active and pushy with his own reads as scum, and lurks to high heaven with the occasional effort when town lol.

fair enough. I guess it's partly about meta, and partly about playstyle this game.

[MoscowFleet]

Teacon also is apparently simultaneously scumreading Flav, emc, ND, and I.

[teacon7]

This is bullshit.

no, this is SPARTAAAA

Path of least resistance wouldn’t have been voting Xorxes yesterday when it looked to be dead in the water.

fair, but it's not like anyone gave you pressure for voting xorx, right?

“d3 he made a lot of sense and voted xorx. I can't complain about his reasoning there. but knowing we were TvT, it strikes me that he could easily look reasonable in picking one of us, and pushing me for the next day.”

Read that again objectively. Probably the most conf biasy thing I’ve ever heard. I make a lot of sense, have good reasoning, but obviously it’s just me playing a great scum game? You’re better than this Teacon.

I'm explaining alternate causes. town!moscow looks pretty reasonable to me here. scum!moscow knew it was TvT, and picked the underdog so he'd look good at the flip. Then, feeling betrayed, he relies on the "it must be MvT" argument to get the next one lynched. I'm explaining alternate causes. that paragraph about d3 is not the root of any case against you. lynching two people in a row because "there must be one scum among them" is... it's NAI at best.

the point is that once we near lylo, and with this much amplitude of fighting, there's gotta be one maybe two lurking scum laughing their hineys off in the corner, keeping a low profile. there's a couple playstyle patterns who fit that description, and you're one of them. imo your d3 shouldn't be read apart from your d4.

As for the three points you mention: a) is completely false, as I mentioned above. When I voted Xorxes, you were the only vote on him.

Have you gotten flack for anything this game moscow?

b) is irl stuff and NAI. I remember in another post you said something along the lines of “unless he has a family member dying he’s scummy”. Relax.

IRL stuff is NAI. agreed. I hope you're having a good time. tbf, I can't know why you're gone, and the AI part of it is: being gone when it's in maf's interest to have a low profile. Wading into the middle of a big fight and getting attention isn't in maf's interest if it's TvT.

C) is half true. I admit many of my posts have relied heavily on the work of others. But following from the last point, I don’t really have much choice when I haven’t participated in some phases a lot. On days when I have posted fairly often (like day 1), this hasn’t happened.

okay.

I absolutely agree that everyone needs to be scrutinized this close to lylo. Nobody gets a free pass.

agreed. You'll see on my flip why i'm doing this.

But your “push” on me basically confirms that you’re scum to me. Reading and forming conclusions is much different from having a goal in mind (scumread Moscow) and going from there.

tbf, I read through vash, vapor/flav, and percy before I read you. The arguments here are based on kinds of participation. fwiw, I'm thinking ahead to how things shake down for lylo, since I figure there's no chance I'm not getting lynched today.


btw, what makes you think XvT is necessarily MvT?

Why'd you move so late EoD1?

[teacon7]

Yea I saw that too last game @emc, in the beginning, Moscow seemed like a scum, now he doesn't. Simple as that, why you pushing him all of a sudden teacon?

If you were in my position, what would you do? sit back and get mislynched? i'm not convinced that town can win this in lylo without more information. moscow disappeared, which isn't good.

Let's get the talkative one first, no? The one trying to make wagons, shall we?
The one named teacon.

::checks the bot:: yep. pretty sure i started my own wagon flav.

Also teacon you keep pushing the idea that lurking is AI, or at least you keep asking people that question.
Here's a good answer to it;
There's probably one lurking scum and one actual talkative scum at this point.

why? what makes you guess that?
Why not two lurkers?

[teacon7]

but, he seems to be a non-emotive player too

Hmm.

Who, me?

Most of emotions in this game seem to be either:
a) "You've gotta be scum because you said you thought I was scum!!!!111"
b) "Let's lynch flav whether or not he's scum because he's annoying."
c) "I hate you from that past game where we disagreed about two games ago where we were mad from some thing on the forum about three games ago..."

[teacon7]

Teacon also is apparently simultaneously scumreading Flav, emc, ND, and I.

Come now.

I'll post reads at EoD.

Are you worried I'm going to try to lynch you?

[e.m.c^42]

but, he seems to be a non-emotive player too

Hmm.

Who, me?

Most of emotions in this game seem to be either:
a) "You've gotta be scum because you said you thought I was scum!!!!111"
b) "Let's lynch flav whether or not he's scum because he's annoying."
c) "I hate you from that past game where we disagreed about two games ago where we were mad from some thing on the forum about three games ago..."

Either that, or "I just hate you existing as a person in general" a la ND and Durga lol

And Flav isn't necessarily annoying, his posts just tickle me in a strange way

[e.m.c^42]

As for Vashta`s case in ND, I'd say how his post quality degenerated would be something, but then again, he's also lost a lot of interest after his personal issues were gone xd

It feels a bit too much wifom-y?

[e.m.c^42]

At the risk of being blasphemous, rereading Teacon it seems less and less likely to be scum lol

since my theatre tinfoil collapsed like a burrito wrapper

[ND]

##VOTE VASHTA

lynched Teacon is beyond stupid