Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

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swordsman3003
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Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#1 Post by swordsman3003 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:38 am

Hello friends and foes. Here once again to promote my blog. Thanks for all the positive support. I guess there's only a handful of people writing blogs about Diplomacy.

First article in a 3-part series. I say that the outermost layer is "Politics."

Unlike some of my other writings, I have two in-depth examples of something I specifically did in a match that I think worked. That's probably the juiciest part. I have an example of where I conquered a player while showering them with messages, and an example of where I conquered a player after going silent for several years. Intriguing!
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#2 Post by mhsmith0 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:03 pm

Diplomacy games are like onions, the best ones involve lots of tears :P
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#3 Post by Temasek22 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:30 am

I...I opened Venice to Tuscany. I’m so sorry...

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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#4 Post by swordsman3003 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:25 am

You can now read "Layer 2: Tactics"

I guess this thread is now a little bit misnamed, but since I didn't get very many replies here, it seems silly to start another thread just for the second part.

In the second part of this series, I offer my opinion that the Tactical Layer is deeper than Politics. That is to say, I believe that the positions and movements of each player's pieces tell you a truer, more accurate story than words.
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 2: Tactics

#5 Post by Carl Tuckerson » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:27 am

swordsman3003 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:25 am
You can now read "Layer 2: Tactics"

I guess this thread is now a little bit misnamed, but since I didn't get very many replies here, it seems silly to start another thread just for the second part.

In the second part of this series, I offer my opinion that the Tactical Layer is deeper than Politics. That is to say, I believe that the positions and movements of each player's pieces tell you a truer, more accurate story than words.
Just think of the title as the outer layer of the onion. As we keep reading the titles, like layers, peel away!
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#6 Post by Octavious » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

The thing about gunboat is that it's some kind of crapshoot, not a serious game. It doesn’t teach you much that's useful for Diplomacy, and does teach a lot of bad habits.

I confess I don't actually know what a crapshoot is... a disappointing glorious 12th, perhaps, or the morning after a vindaloo?... but it looks rather a fun word so I'm sticking with it :).

Another interesting read, as always. The general gist, if you'll forgive the gross simplification, is that if an ally builds or moves a unit without warning that could be used against you, the chances are it's going to be used against you. All good stuff.

I think you're a bit light on the more interesting area of the game in which units position can be used to tell lies. In gunboat this is impractical, as what communication that does exist is available to all, akin to a public press game. But in Diplomacy you have a fantastic opportunity to agree with a neighbour a set of moves that will scream disinformation to any observer under the impression that tactics always trump politics.

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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#7 Post by Lord of Broken Plains » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:12 am

Hi there,

I've just read your political analysis with enjoyment and I'm about to head keenly on to the Tactical.

Before I do, however, I wanted to raise a small objection to the 'silent treatment'. Obviously, in the right situation, it works well in an online game. However, I'm a little bit purist and I constantly compare all strategies to F2F games (where I play most often).

In a F2F game, it is incredibly hard to flat-out ignore an opponent. They can be fobbed off for one or perhaps two phases, but not much longer. Even if you refuse to have a discourse with them, chances are they will ceaselessly follow you and/or find a way to spy on you.

As such, I just felt that it should be put down in print somewhere that this particular strategy is not so readily applicable everywhere.

Now, on to Tactics!

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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#8 Post by swordsman3003 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:23 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am
But in Diplomacy you have a fantastic opportunity to agree with a neighbour a set of moves that will scream disinformation to any observer under the impression that tactics always trump politics.
Give me a few weeks to finish the third article...this is what I'm hinting at by saying "we need to go deeper!" at the end. :-D
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 2: Tactics

#9 Post by swordsman3003 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:14 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am
The thing about gunboat is that it's some kind of crapshoot, not a serious game. It doesn’t teach you much that's useful for Diplomacy, and does teach a lot of bad habits.
A separate reply for this. I could not disagree more.

Gunboat is not as deep as Press Diplomacy, and isn't terribly balanced, but the game is deadly serious. Perhaps you have not played many matches at a high level?

What Gunboat teaches you that is useful to Press Diplomacy is that you have to read the board, and you have to make smart tactical decisions. You have to understand what is reasonable, likely, possible, etc. without depending on the other players in the match to explain things to you. You have to think on your feet, and think for yourself.

In Gunboat Diplomacy, you can't use words to manipulate other players, or dupe them into telling you what their moves will be. You have to predict their moves with sheer intuition. And it is possible to learn how to predict players' moves with startling accuracy. In Press Diplomacy, there come critical turns where you must "take a leap of faith" on your guesses, and inexperienced players' skills start breaking down at this point because the situation is unfamiliar.

Further, you can play so many Gunboat matches compared to Press Diplomacy, and in this way build up a lot of tactical experience. This experience improves your ability to assign a raw tactical value to all the different possible moves you could make (such as the overall utility of a territory in a long fight, or the long-term implications of getting a piece into a certain position). Knowing the objective tactical value of certain positions or moves reduces the ability of your rivals to manipulate your decisions.

This is an argument from my personal authority, so it only has whatever weight you give to my judgment of my own experiences: When I go to war against another player in Press Diplomacy, I usually win that war because I have fought that war many times before.

For example, in a war for Scandinavia, I understand how critical it is to get an army into Finland, and the precise ideal movements for each of the local powers (England, Russia, Germany) to slip that army into Finland. My intution in this regard is about just one tiny part of the overall war. Because these capabilities depend so much on intuition that comes from personal experience (what they call your "gut"), reducing my analysis to a piece of writing that someone could pick up and follow seems like a task of staggering difficulty; I'm not sure if it's even possible. It took me 80,000 words to describe my thoughts of one specific Gunboat match; I think it would take me 50 or 100 times that amount of writing to describe everything I've learned from Gunboat Diplomacy.

But I think someone could replicate what I've learned by playing more Gunboat Diplomacy on their own (and taking it seriously).

Many fellow players tell me that I have an impressive tactical acumen. Some of them are good enough players to have a valid perspective on my ability, and I don't think all of them are just trying to butter me up. I share their opinion that my tactical abilities are strong. And I believe that I gained these abilities by playing a crap-ton of Gunboat matches.

Octavious, you're an experienced-enough player to already know how and why I would disagree, so I expect my reasoning won't budge you an inch. I just want to stand by my advice to weaker players that playing Gunboat will make them better tacticians.
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#10 Post by Restitution » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:09 pm

In a Gunboat game, how do you use your skill to avoid being attacked by Italy as Austria in 1901 Spring, or avoid being 2v1'd as a Western power?

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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#11 Post by Octavious » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:34 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:14 pm
Octavious, you're an experienced-enough player to already know how and why I would disagree, so I expect my reasoning won't budge you an inch. I just want to stand by my advice to weaker players that playing Gunboat will make them better tacticians.
Lol! I only said the first bit to prove I'd read your article to the bottom ;). I stand by my comments about the use of the lessons of gunboat in Diplomacy, but accept that some people both enjoy it and take it seriously. I can't for the life of me fathom why, but they do nonetheless.
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#12 Post by BunnyGo » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:16 pm

Octavious wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:19 am

I confess I don't actually know what a crapshoot is... a disappointing glorious 12th, perhaps, or the morning after a vindaloo?... but it looks rather a fun word so I'm sticking with it :).
FYI the game Craps is basically rolling dice and seeing if certain combinations come up to win. "Shooting" the dice is slang for rolling them. So a crapshoot is a roll of the dice to randomly determine if you win or lose.
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#13 Post by mhsmith0 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:18 pm

Restitution wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:09 pm
In a Gunboat game, how do you use your skill to avoid being attacked by Italy as Austria in 1901 Spring, or avoid being 2v1'd as a Western power?
There's really nothing you can do as Austria to avoid the 1901 spring cluster (I personally feel like "waht do the other 6 people do in spring 1901" is pretty much luck of the draw but not doing that argument again :P )

As a western power, though, I think there's a lot you can do to avoid getting ganged up on (obv the spring 1901 lack of control caveat applies)

As England
Decide off the bat how you're gonna handle France. If you vacate the channel, you'll need a plan for what to do if France rolls you up in 1902-3 (which is very possible)
PROBABLY the easiest way to handle this is to open to the channel, and make it fairly obvious to Germany that you want to work with him against France (and Russia, though that's not as big of a priority most of the time)

As France
If E/G are allies off the bat, play defense as best you can until *SOMETHING* makes the alliance crack
If England is friendly with you, take advantage to grow, or at least make sure that you can hold off an E/G alliance if you're gonna stab. Probably the reverse w/ Germany too.

As Germany
Make a priority of allying England if you can; in particular, if England opens to Channel, bounce Russia and make it obvious you want to work together, and keep that up for a good long while
If the Channel was vacated by both E/F, consider allying Russia so that England's growth is heavily constrained. You can't really control whether France can roll up Italy in the south, but if E/F are both halted for growth, eventually one should stab the other

That's kind of my gut advice but I'm sure others can give better advice. But I think as basically any power, you have a lot of control over how the game shakes out, even if you hit an unlucky 1901 patch (other than Austria, if your 3 neighbors decide to kill you early, time to start a new game :P )
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#14 Post by swordsman3003 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:16 pm

There's a lot to say about Strategy. (Surprise, Surprise)

Instead of publishing one titanic & unreadable article, I broke off a subsection and published as its own post. I consider it part of this series, but it could also stand alone.

The Top 5 Strategic Goals in Diplomacy

Enjoy!
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#15 Post by Squigs44 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:09 am

The Non-Strategic goal section was... uhh... yeah, I felt that criticism personally. I'm a people pleaser, so making friends is too important to me to ignore that goal. It's alright though, I enjoy the game even if I rarely solo.
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#16 Post by e.m.c^42 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:21 am

Squigs44 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:09 am
The Non-Strategic goal section was... uhh... yeah, I felt that criticism personally. I'm a people pleaser, so making friends is too important to me to ignore that goal. It's alright though, I enjoy the game even if I rarely solo.
*lies prone and dead from sympathetic pain*

I feel you, buddy. I feel you more

lol
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#17 Post by Octavious » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:51 am

An interesting article. Have to say I am inclined to disagree with a few of the fundamentals, although a lot of the content is sound.

The ultimate goal in Diplomacy, that trumps all others, is non-strategic. This goal is simply to have fun. A Diplomacy player who regularly achieves this goal will continue playing regardless of their results. A Diplomacy player who regularly fails in this regard will give up on the game, even if they have an impressive win rate.

I, surprisingly enough, find little enjoyment in winning. The fun is in the negotiation, the surprise, the comradeship, the stab, the desperate defence and the glorious charge. I find winning itself always anticlimactic. The game ends, and more often than not does so with a far smaller group of people who largely say something like "good game" or nothing at all before buggering off and never speaking to you again. The experience of winning is a feeble shadow of the rich tapestry of the game itself. This is true regardless of the type of game, be it a 5 point beginners event or a tournament final. But still we try to win because without that aim, as unsatisfying as it is, there can be no game. To play without the intention of winning is to disrespect the other players, and that is unforgivable.

Unless I skipped it your draw analysis seems to ignore those who see a draw as a draw and care little for the number of points or impact on ratings of supposedly better draws. Perhaps this view is less common than it used to be, but it is one I have always played by. If I cannot win I shall aim to draw, and if I have any aim at all beyond me being part of it, it will be to try and push for players who have impressed me to be included, and very occasionally players who irritated me to be cut out. Draw thinning for the sake of points or ratings I find to be rather vulgar, and such play leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth even in tournaments when this can be necessary for progression.

Oh, one final point. There are no huge risks in Diplomacy as there is nothing of significance to lose. There is more risk in crossing the street than you'll find in any Diplomacy game. We like to imagine that we are taking risks, because there's a sense of romance and danger about such things, but we're really not ;).
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#18 Post by BobMcBob » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:12 am

Octavious wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:51 am
An interesting article. Have to say I am inclined to disagree with a few of the fundamentals, although a lot of the content is sound.

The ultimate goal in Diplomacy, that trumps all others, is non-strategic. This goal is simply to have fun. A Diplomacy player who regularly achieves this goal will continue playing regardless of their results. A Diplomacy player who regularly fails in this regard will give up on the game, even if they have an impressive win rate.
I strongly agree with this, along with many of the other things Octavious said. The goal of Diplomacy, like any game, is to have fun, with a secondary goal (like most games) being winning. Of course, like Octavious and most people here, I play to win, especially given that I haven't soloed yet and want to experience it and put it on my record.

But primarily I play because I love the tactics, the strategy, the negotiations, the alliances, the communication, and just generally the game itself. Diplomacy is a great game, but in the end it is just a game, and games are played for fun. (Although I really would like to win sometime...)

P.S. This is of course assuming that you are not one of those wierd people who plays games for the sole reason of proving that they're better than other people, and only find satisfaction in doing better than other people. To those of you out there, congratulations, and please get a life.
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#19 Post by Restitution » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:16 pm

BobMcBob wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:12 am
I strongly agree with this, along with many of the other things Octavious said. The goal of Diplomacy, like any game, is to have fun, with a secondary goal (like most games) being winning. Of course, like Octavious and most people here, I play to win, especially given that I haven't soloed yet and want to experience it and put it on my record.

But primarily I play because I love the tactics, the strategy, the negotiations, the alliances, the communication, and just generally the game itself. Diplomacy is a great game, but in the end it is just a game, and games are played for fun. (Although I really would like to win sometime...)

P.S. This is of course assuming that you are not one of those wierd people who plays games for the sole reason of proving that they're better than other people, and only find satisfaction in doing better than other people. To those of you out there, congratulations, and please get a life.
I don't think that this is contradictory to the article's point.

The best way to have fun while playing Diplomacy (or any board game, really) is *trying* to win. Actually winning isn't necessarily fun, but adopting winning as a value is necessary for the game to function correctly, and for it to be fun.

Winning isn't fun, but trying as hard as possible to win is fun.

I do disagree with Octavious on one thing though, that being "analyzing the draw". To me, maximizing the rating system is fun. Trying to cut down the draw to maximize my point share is part of the fun and long-term strategy of the game. I don't really care too much about who 'deserves' to be in the draw. Anybody who can jam their way into the draw 'deserves' it, to me.

I found this article super insightful and I've been seeing my play quality improving drastically since I started reading this site, especially as I've been working my way through the BGOAT log.

@Swordsman3003, have you considered writing a BGOAT-style log for a full-press game?
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Re: Diplomacy Games are Like Onions, Layer 1: Politics

#20 Post by BunnyGo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:12 pm

Restitution wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:16 pm

@Swordsman3003, have you considered writing a BGOAT-style log for a full-press game?
He already did, it's up there (he played England in that one)
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