Re: No trace of human DNA or Deity DNA found in local eucharist
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:14 am
Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
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Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
Your first source does not look reliable to me. I took the time to find the source data anyway:CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:35 pmHere's one for other crimes, not including murder:
https://www.marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_crime_rates
This study links secularization (i.e. the lack of religion i.e. Atheism) with higher homicide and crime rates:
https://irl.umsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1729&context=dissertation
International relations actually works via consensus. UNGA resolutions are majority votes, but they are non-binding. In any case, no country voted against adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:11 amFair point. But it is much easier to come to an agreement when both sides have a standard to be held to. It is much easier to determine whether a nation's actions are right or wrong when we have something like the UN's Declaration of Human Rights to measure it against. And if that standard is inherently unchanging, unlike the Declaration of Human Rights which relies on majority approval, then you have a way to evermore empirically determine the correct and incorrect side of an issue.
I should have written that as "there is no way for them to come to an agreement except by fighting it out or having a majority on both sides agree on a settlement."
But wouldn't tyranny of the imaginary be far worse than tyranny of the majority?CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:11 amSo again, it's either the tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of force.
I'm not saying it's how they pass specific policy. I'm saying it's how each individual member determines what is right or wrong. But yeah, as I said, the UN Declaration of Human Rights is flawed because it changes with majority opinion. Doesn't prove my point wrong.
If the Bible were imaginary, then Christianity would be a tyranny of the imaginary.JECE wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:36 amBut wouldn't tyranny of the imaginary be far worse than tyranny of the majority?CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:11 amSo again, it's either the tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of force.
I'll concede that point. I didn't do as much research as I should have done before making a claim.JECE wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:16 amYour first source does not look reliable to me. I took the time to find the source data anyway:CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:35 pmHere's one for other crimes, not including murder:
https://www.marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_crime_rates
This study links secularization (i.e. the lack of religion i.e. Atheism) with higher homicide and crime rates:
https://irl.umsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1729&context=dissertation
https://www.nlsinfo.org/investigator/pages/search
As of Survey Year 2019, eleven survey participants reported being convicted of or pleading guilty to "assault, such as battery, rape, aggravated assault, manslaughter". Only four of these provided information on their present religion:What conclusion can we draw from this? Nothing.
- A non-Black, non-Hispanic man with no religion who never attends service
- A Black Christian man who attends service about once a week
- A Hispanic Catholic man who never attends service
- A Hispanic Christian woman who attends service several times a week
Your second source literally contradicts your claim that murder rates are highest among atheists or that homicide rates are positively associated with secularization. See page 71:
"Neither the major world religions nor the measure of religious pluralism displays a significant association with homicide, but the proportion atheist is associated with lower rates of homicide (r = -.530, p < .001). Atheism may be correlated with lower rates of homicide since it serves as the antithesis of religious passion which has been linked to higher rates of homicide (Jensen, G. F., 2006, "Religious cosmologies and homicide rates among nations", Journal of Religion and Society, 8, 1-14). Any partial correlation between atheism and homicide will be revealed in the multivariate analysis. As anticipated due to its representation of egoistic individualism, the proportion who believe individuals should be careful rather than trusting of others displays a significant positive association with homicide (r = .532, p < .001). Contrary to what has been hypothesized, secularization displays a significant negative association with homicide (r = -.483, p < .001)."
Fair play to you for acknowledging that.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:13 pmYou raise a good point. It is a debate of ideologies, so I should not have brought up a statistic that relies on a great many factors other than ideology.
Did you bother to check those 11 other sources? There are actually just 9, and at least half of them draw their data directly from the National Longitudinal Surveys that I linked to. All four of the bar graphs in the article name a National Longitudinal Survey as their source.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:10 amI'll concede that point. I didn't do as much research as I should have done before making a claim.JECE wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:16 amYour first source does not look reliable to me. I took the time to find the source data anyway:CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 11:35 pmHere's one for other crimes, not including murder:
https://www.marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_crime_rates
This study links secularization (i.e. the lack of religion i.e. Atheism) with higher homicide and crime rates:
https://irl.umsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1729&context=dissertation
https://www.nlsinfo.org/investigator/pages/search
As of Survey Year 2019, eleven survey participants reported being convicted of or pleading guilty to "assault, such as battery, rape, aggravated assault, manslaughter". Only four of these provided information on their present religion:What conclusion can we draw from this? Nothing.
- A non-Black, non-Hispanic man with no religion who never attends service
- A Black Christian man who attends service about once a week
- A Hispanic Catholic man who never attends service
- A Hispanic Christian woman who attends service several times a week
Your second source literally contradicts your claim that murder rates are highest among atheists or that homicide rates are positively associated with secularization. See page 71:
"Neither the major world religions nor the measure of religious pluralism displays a significant association with homicide, but the proportion atheist is associated with lower rates of homicide (r = -.530, p < .001). Atheism may be correlated with lower rates of homicide since it serves as the antithesis of religious passion which has been linked to higher rates of homicide (Jensen, G. F., 2006, "Religious cosmologies and homicide rates among nations", Journal of Religion and Society, 8, 1-14). Any partial correlation between atheism and homicide will be revealed in the multivariate analysis. As anticipated due to its representation of egoistic individualism, the proportion who believe individuals should be careful rather than trusting of others displays a significant positive association with homicide (r = .532, p < .001). Contrary to what has been hypothesized, secularization displays a significant negative association with homicide (r = -.483, p < .001)."
Regarding the first source, it cites 11 different sources. The one you mentioned may only be four examples, but it is just one of the 11.
But yeah, it is not directly related to homicide, just crime in general.
In the second source, I misread something on page 72. I interpreted a triple negative as a double negative.
I still find it rather curious, as reading page 18 of the study gives us this quotation:
"Higher rates of crime and violence will occur in secularized environments as the plausibility of religious values is attenuated, and these religious values cannot spur the morality necessary to reinforce institutional norms."
It appears that atheism leads to higher crime and violence, but less murder. This was a subpoint, however, and substituting "crime and violence" with "homicide" makes the point just as well.
As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, Atheism is not a ideology. Atheism is not a structure for anything, nor does anyone say it is (except for theists trying to create a straw man).CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:20 pmYou are beating a dead horse here, while not addressing the substance of the original point I made when I brought up the statistic.
My point was that inherently, Atheism does not condemn murder, crime, or anything else. Atheists may come to their own conclusions, but those conclusions may be contradictory and there is no standard to determine which side is right.
I am curious why the second study would state what I quoted (quoted, not paraphrased) without any argument to the contrary, or any mention of use in testing. It simply stated it as fact.
Atheism does not purport to be a basis for morality.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:01 amIt is very much an ideology. It is the belief that there is no God. That is an ideology.
But regardless, you say it is unrelated to morality.
So then my claim that Atheism does not provide a basis for morals is true, which is what I've been getting at this whole time. Atheism is amoral, and therefore fails to provide a basis with which to resolve moral conflicts.
Merriam-Webster defines it as:Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:02 amI hate to go to "the dictionary says" but the Oxford English dictionary defines "ideology" as:
1. A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.
- Atheism is not a system at all. It is not an ideology.
Well I won't expect a swift response, then. I wouldn't want to interrupt your prayers to nothing.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:06 amI'd go into more detail but it's Sunday so I need to get ready to go to Atheist Church and celebrate Atheist Mass in which we all sing songs about the futility of existence and recite verses from a blank notebook.
Glad we could clear that up.Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 9:57 amAtheism does not purport to be a basis for morality.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 3:01 amIt is very much an ideology. It is the belief that there is no God. That is an ideology.
But regardless, you say it is unrelated to morality.
So then my claim that Atheism does not provide a basis for morals is true, which is what I've been getting at this whole time. Atheism is amoral, and therefore fails to provide a basis with which to resolve moral conflicts.
Atheism does not purport to be a system for resolving conflicts.
Your "claim" is technically true but it is also worthless.
Incorrect.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:09 amAnd because you, Jamie, base your beliefs off of Atheism, you cannot either. Because you may come to your individual conclusion that all of the above moral judgements are true, but for anyone else, your judgements mean nothing.