Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

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Enriador
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Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#1 Post by Enriador » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:45 am

New issue of the Pouch is up at last. Includes, among other things:

* An interview with Andrew Goff, the WDC2018 winner
* A treatise on the convoy paradox - and its solutions
* A reason for Russia to move to Livonia in 1901
* Some poetry!

Link : http://uk.diplom.org/pouch//Zine/F2018M/

Other editions: http://uk.diplom.org/pouch//Zine/

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#2 Post by Durga » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:59 am

"Feminism and the patriarchy duked it out in a match that crossed over into other publications. Or why you can't just skip the Princess stage on your way to becoming an Overlord."

Really

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#3 Post by orathaic » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:09 pm

Someone's needs to realise that blogging is the new Zine... Or am I wrong?

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#4 Post by ghug » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:48 am

Someone needs to realize that equivocating sexism and the response to sexism as equally valid viewpoints is a big factor in the hobby being nearly exclusively male.
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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#5 Post by Durga » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:29 pm

Oh by the way... For anyone interested here is my "hot and angry rebuke, not really suitable for publication"

"Alright, I honestly think the framing of that question is pretty offensive. Not only to me but to everyone I was playing with. I think to a certain degree all online players are underestimated, I don't think this has anything to do with my gender or age however. I never "screamed for help" or anything of the sort. Everyone there did not treat me special or like I needed babying. Let me remind you that I was eliminated in game two, please don't create the narrative that I had it easier than anyone else. Everyone there is competitive and has a desire to win, and my gender isn't going to hinder or stop any of those desires. There have been other women at WDC's before so it isn't like people there haven't seen a woman. And I think any hopes of underestimating me were squashed after I topped my board in round 1. Just to make it even clearer, my game in round 1 had a player that knew me from online so he had no reason to underestimate me anyway. I really did not feel any special treatment during the course of any game. I would frankly be insulted if someone tried that."

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#6 Post by jmo1121109 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:17 am

Enriador wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:45 am
New issue of the Pouch is up at last. Includes, among other things:

* An interview with Andrew Goff, the WDC2018 winner
* A treatise on the convoy paradox - and its solutions
* A reason for Russia to move to Livonia in 1901
* Some poetry!

Link : http://uk.diplom.org/pouch//Zine/F2018M/

Other editions: http://uk.diplom.org/pouch//Zine/
I wanted to take a moment to express my disappointment as an admin on 2 diplomacy sites with this issue of the Zine. Over the past few years all of the online diplomacy sites have made an effort to ensure our community is welcoming and non bigoted towards all groups of people. We do not allow sexism, racism, or any other type of bigotry based harassment or targeting of people. I have personally banned people for this because it is important to the community that any new members who are viewing our site for the first time see a welcoming atmosphere focused on the game. While there is obviously still work to do, the number of women on the various diplomacy sites has increased significantly over the past few years.

I am disappointed that the editors at the zine decided to hinder those efforts with a blatantly non welcoming image to all female players prevalent on this issue's main page.

"Feminism and the patriarchy duked it out in a match that crossed over into other publications. Or why you can't just skip the Princess stage on your way to becoming an Overlord."

This is highly misleading. What you've done is give someone a platform to defend themselves for being sexist in their questions and framing of how a female member of the community was able to place highly in a tournament. Taking away from that person's skill, and instead attributing the victory to their gender. It's very simple, the answer to Mario's question here: "Do I owe feminism or the female race an apology?" is yes, he does owe women an apology. As does Conrad for his admittance of targeting women in face to face diplomacy. If he had a user account on this site and said he deliberately targeted female players then he would be banned for metagaming. If the Face to Face community is wondering why there are so few women participating in their games compared to the number of women playing online they need only look at quotes like that.

So I would ask the editors at the Zine to think long and hard about the type of image they want to offer back to the community at large, and if they are really happy with how that "match" represents the community to any first time viewers who happen to be female. Giving people a platform to defend sexist views and sexist diplomacy targeting in games isn't what I expect from this community. Please do better.

Thanks,
WebDip Dev and VDip Admin
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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#7 Post by VillageIdiot » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:20 am

On a more positive note, awesome interview with Goff!

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#8 Post by woelpad » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:46 am

As the author of the article and editor of the Pouch, allow me to reply to the Web Dev's accusations here.
jmo1121109 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:17 am
I wanted to take a moment to express my disappointment as an admin on 2 diplomacy sites with this issue of the Zine. Over the past few years all of the online diplomacy sites have made an effort to ensure our community is welcoming and non bigoted towards all groups of people. We do not allow sexism, racism, or any other type of bigotry based harassment or targeting of people. I have personally banned people for this because it is important to the community that any new members who are viewing our site for the first time see a welcoming atmosphere focused on the game. While there is obviously still work to do, the number of women on the various diplomacy sites has increased significantly over the past few years.
I'm glad to hear that. Our goals appear to be the same, so I'm pretty sure our differences are simply semantic. Let's examine what makes you irk and try to remedy that.
I am disappointed that the editors at the zine decided to hinder those efforts with a blatantly non welcoming image to all female players prevalent on this issue's main page.

"Feminism and the patriarchy duked it out in a match that crossed over into other publications. Or why you can't just skip the Princess stage on your way to becoming an Overlord."

This is highly misleading. What you've done is give someone a platform to defend themselves for being sexist in their questions and framing of how a female member of the community was able to place highly in a tournament. Taking away from that person's skill, and instead attributing the victory to their gender. It's very simple, the answer to Mario's question here: "Do I owe feminism or the female race an apology?" is yes, he does owe women an apology.
Cut. So two things. The blob on the issue's index page and the apparent lack of a formal apology.

The only purpose of a blob is to attract eyeballs. In no way is there an obligation to summarize the whole article or even hint at the direction it will take. Usually the title would give away the topic, but as this happened to be a generic column, you're left somewhat in the dark.

That said, I'm cutting out the second part, because if read as a conclusion, it appears to make a judgement on just one half of society, whereas it should have critiqued both. The first part however is pretty run-of-the-mill. A bit cheeky perhaps. Not all appreciate my particular humor, but I hear some do.

As for an apology, that's for me to decide, isn't it? Up to that point I had enraged one person. I apologized for my poor analogy and dropped it altogether, but kept the theme in the published interview. There was no outcry. Now I wrote an article to explain in detail the construction of the unpublished analogy and the intention behind it. Why would I need to apologize when you're presented the full picture? That makes little sense to me.

I've reworded the paragraph to clarify that I apologized to that one person. Let it no longer detract from the message that I do support an equal and inclusive society. Just like I hope my readers do.
As does Conrad for his admittance of targeting women in face to face diplomacy. If he had a user account on this site and said he deliberately targeted female players then he would be banned for metagaming. If the Face to Face community is wondering why there are so few women participating in their games compared to the number of women playing online they need only look at quotes like that.
Here's where I think you're going overboard. Conrad is not going after female players in everyone of his games because they're female. He targets them in some games because of the perceived effect they make (by their playing style, by their presence perhaps) on the other players. This might be an economical decision. If just one player is completely wrapped, it might be easier to go after that one player. In other games he might side with the female player, because she's being shunned or because it just makes sense. At all times he's making an estimate on how it will serve his goals in the framework of the game.

And yes, presence does make an impact in face-to-face games. Unlike Internet Diplomacy people judge each other not only on their words, but also on their behavior and body language. FTF Diplomacy is a social interaction and as such prejudices will come into play. If a kid approaches you, you might automatically think that they're new to the game and treat them differently than the grandpa who looks like he's one of the regulars. If a person with a strange accent is seen talking to another player in his own language, you might assume that they're going to work together and start looking for your own peers. Likewise if you're dealing with women, you might try to appeal to their mother instinct in an attempt to keep your sorry self in the game. Whether it works is another question. All that is natural, and to say that all that should be strictly ignored because it might present a barrier to play is just not realistic.
So I would ask the editors at the Zine to think long and hard about the type of image they want to offer back to the community at large, and if they are really happy with how that "match" represents the community to any first time viewers who happen to be female. Giving people a platform to defend sexist views and sexist diplomacy targeting in games isn't what I expect from this community. Please do better.

Thanks,
WebDip Dev and VDip Admin
Well, here you have it. By the way, if you want a reaction from a specific author or editor, why don't you contact them directly? Every article contains the author's email address, either at the bottom or, in the case of a Pouch Deposit, in the post heading. Or if you knew my handler, you can just PM me.

Mario Huys
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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#9 Post by Durga » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:27 am

This article was worse than the unpublished analogy. I love being targeted as a way to "attract eyeballs". I kept you anonymous, no need for this bs.

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#10 Post by Durga » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:46 am

Agh I also nearly strangled you for your Pocahontas/John Smith comment. Someone lock this thread before I lose my shit

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#11 Post by jmo1121109 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:46 am

Sigh, so to sum it all up, you think you did nothing wrong and don't see how your actions are sexist and therefore view yourself as in the right. I'll spend some time this weekend trying to explain the various ways your article and your response is sexist and a poor reflection on the community.

Not that I expected anything except a defensive reply from a post that starts with "Let's examine what makes you irk and try to remedy that."

Until I get my post up, read back through this thread and note that everyone else commenting feels your article and response is sexist too.
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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#12 Post by leon1122 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:43 am

jmo1121109 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:46 am
Until I get my post up, read back through this thread and note that everyone else commenting feels your article and response is sexist too.
Yeah because you've already banned anyone who would dare to state a different opinion.

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#13 Post by ziran » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:27 pm

leon1122 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:43 am
jmo1121109 wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:46 am
Until I get my post up, read back through this thread and note that everyone else commenting feels your article and response is sexist too.
Yeah because you've already banned anyone who would dare to state a different opinion.
or, because the article attempts to defend a completely unsubstantiated, easily disprovable and sexist claim: that someone who is successful at diplomacy online, where gender is not a factor, is bad at diplomacy but can have some success because of their gender.

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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#14 Post by jmo1121109 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:35 pm

Alright I'm just going to quickly address a couple points in this in a general sense.
The only purpose of a blob is to attract eyeballs. In no way is there an obligation to summarize the whole article or even hint at the direction it will take. Usually the title would give away the topic, but as this happened to be a generic column, you're left somewhat in the dark.
What you're arguing here is that it's okay to make an extremely sexist GOTCHA headline to attract readers as long as you feel the overall content of the article is not the same way. There's a million things wrong with that but the base of it is. That blob is highly visible on your site and it's blatantly unfriendly to women. Not just women playing the game but women in general. And understand that I am telling you, not seeking for your opinion, but telling you, that sexist content isn't welcome on this site.
As for an apology, that's for me to decide, isn't it?
And here's the big part. No, whether or not you *should* apologize is not up to you, that is up to the people you slighted, which is women and everyone trying to make the hobby a welcoming place to all. Whether or not you are a big enough person to do so is what is up to you. You have been informed that you made people uncomfortable and treated them unfairly with sexist content. This viewpoint was +1'ed by multiple site members including 2 former site admins and is agreed upon by myself and the current site admin. And your choice was to disregard those people's concerns as wrong.

So understand, that if you and the Zine continue to publish future articles with sexist, or bigoted content against any group, links to that content will be removed from this site and you'll be subject to the normal forum sanctions of people who post and encourage sexist and bigoted content.

I just wanted to quickly set expectations here, that you and the Zine's other authors will not receive special exemption from the site's rules around bigotry and sexism. At this point myself and some of the other site leaders are going to take you up on your offer and email a more formal response to the various zine leaders.
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Re: Diplomatic Pouch Zine - New Issue!

#15 Post by bo_sox48 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:20 pm

Hi Mario,

As jmo mentioned, the rules here are pretty plain and simple with regard to how people are treated. The Diplomacy hobby in general occasionally seems to be behind the curve in acknowledging some basic realities of the human condition - for example, people like to be treated equally and not be categorized or treated differently because of some judgment you make about them that is out of their immediate control. I am consistently amazed that there are still people in this world that cannot grasp such a simple concept. Your response to those who have made that argument before me in this thread is pitiful so I will not push that issue any further as I already know you will disregard and dismiss it, but let the record show that they are exactly right in their criticism of your article.

After two months, your best attempt yet at a resolution was to erase a dozen or so words from a headline. Predictably, that attempt at backpedaling fell flat. Because I feel that this issue has not been resolved to even a remotely satisfactory degree, I will be contacting you as well as other prominent members of the Pouch as nothing more than another member of the Diplomacy community both online and face-to-face in a short while to air out the remainder of my grievances with how you conduct your interviews, present the answers your interviewees provide, and your responses to simple criticisms. I imagine that, as you requested we do with our grievances in your last post, others might consider joining me, if they have not already.

As an administrator on webDiplomacy, though, this discussion's end is long overdue. This thread is locked. What you choose to say, ask, and write is not up to me, but what you choose to post here is, so if you choose to post your articles again, please ensure that they conform to our rules.

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