Next level of gunboat metagame

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Expand view Topic review: Next level of gunboat metagame

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by diplomat554 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:00 pm

I agree with that. Trying to make friends didn't work out. I would have made a more aggressive move to Belgium or Munich to take what I could get in retrospect.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Puscherbilbo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:48 pm

Ger made a bad call in Aut 01. Mun is imho the least attractive of the 3 available options.
If he can build A Mun in Winter01 then you cannot build F Brest. If that happens it could very well be game over right there.
I think Bur-Bel in Aut01 > your decision. if you loose Bur you still get builds in Paris+Brest.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by diplomat554 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:04 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:56 am
Thoughts on this?
Bre -> Channel
Mar S Par -> Bur
I played this in a recent gunboat: https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?game ... #gamePanel

The game didn't go great for me, but I remain convinced this is one of the strongest defensive options, which is top priority for France in the current climate. It discourages a full 1901 attack from anyone without particularly pissing anyone off. Get that guaranteed build and hope E/G get bored, which you would need to survive against them long term anyway.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Matticus13 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:14 am

Puscherbilbo wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:11 am
Fra might have to gamble on BUR more often going to Pic+Spain+MAO.
Also which discordchannel?
Usually the live game channel. Probably should be discussed more in the strategy channel, but the current Discord metagame is making it the default server.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Matticus13 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:12 am

Carl Tuckerson wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:56 am
It's just real hard to make the right call on what to do in the fall because there's so many terrible fail states. The continuation into Mid-Atlantic is brutal and you can't protect against it unless you forgo a 2nd build. I find they rarely go for Brest, but God help you if you let them take it, and honestly God help you if you cover Brest and they don't go for it too.

I'm reminded a lot of the situation Russia and Austria face in Galicia honestly. Whatever other productive uses might be available for those armies is overshadowed by the ceiling of successfully taking Galicia in S01. The catch is that France has Portugal calling his name.

Thoughts on this?
Bre -> Channel
Mar S Par -> Bur

The main weakness of Mar S Par -> Bur is that you're vulnerable to a move to the Channel if you end S01 with a fleet in MAO and no other units adjacent to Brest. Moving to the Channel sidesteps that, has the upside of hard-countering Wal/Channel from England, and you'll have two units on Belgium in the fall if you do take the Channel, so you have a proactive way to try to get two builds.

edit: Plus, if E/G really is as rampant as people are saying, this is by far the strongest possible opening to protect yourself from E/G. I worry about pissing them off needlessly, but it sounds like current meta says that they're coming for you pissed or not, might as well put up a tough defense.
I like this. Puts that brick wall up immediately, and puts England in a BAD way if they open Liverpool->Wales (which is why I usually open to Yorkshire as England when opening to EC). Have to try something....

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Puscherbilbo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:11 am

Fra might have to gamble on BUR more often going to Pic+Spain+MAO.
Also which discordchannel?

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Chaqa » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:42 am

The live game meta - which is kinda a testing ground for the webDip gunboat meta as a whole, to some extent - has become EXTREMELY anti-French. Based on Swordsman's articles and the advice of players like NEFS and myself, I think England opening to the channel has become almost standard. This also leads to a lot of Italians and Germans making anti-French moves, to the extent we've barely had a game of live Gunboat where France WASN'T crippled lately.

In most of these games, Germany also bounces Russia in Sweden.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Carl Tuckerson » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:56 am

It's just real hard to make the right call on what to do in the fall because there's so many terrible fail states. The continuation into Mid-Atlantic is brutal and you can't protect against it unless you forgo a 2nd build. I find they rarely go for Brest, but God help you if you let them take it, and honestly God help you if you cover Brest and they don't go for it too.

I'm reminded a lot of the situation Russia and Austria face in Galicia honestly. Whatever other productive uses might be available for those armies is overshadowed by the ceiling of successfully taking Galicia in S01. The catch is that France has Portugal calling his name.

Thoughts on this?
Bre -> Channel
Mar S Par -> Bur

The main weakness of Mar S Par -> Bur is that you're vulnerable to a move to the Channel if you end S01 with a fleet in MAO and no other units adjacent to Brest. Moving to the Channel sidesteps that, has the upside of hard-countering Wal/Channel from England, and you'll have two units on Belgium in the fall if you do take the Channel, so you have a proactive way to try to get two builds.

edit: Plus, if E/G really is as rampant as people are saying, this is by far the strongest possible opening to protect yourself from E/G. I worry about pissing them off needlessly, but it sounds like current meta says that they're coming for you pissed or not, might as well put up a tough defense.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by mhsmith0 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:35 am

I think England in the channel with wales army is super nasty for France, but England in the channel with Yorkshire army isn’t THAT bad, since it can convoy to Norway or Belgium, and even if it goes to Belgium it can go after Germany instead of France reasonably well.

But to the extent meta shifts to where England commonly opens to ENG and Wales, France probably would need to suck it up and bounce ENG, which then basically cripples England since he has two units in awful position for fall 1901.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Carl Tuckerson » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:14 am

Matticus13 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:41 am
mhsmith0 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:40 pm
If England NEVER opens to the channel, as France I'm probably thinking of going there once in a while but definitely not my main preference.

If England ALWAYS opens to the channel, as France it still isn't necessarily huge to go there defensively; provided England opens Yor-Lvp instead of Yor-Wal, he's almost never gonna convoy to Brest, so I don't have to be super worried about things defensively, at least not immediately (though obviously I'd rather have him not in ENG).

I don't really think that opening to Iberia as France is wise. At least one unit should be on Burgundy (forcing it is probably fine too), because Germany in Burgundy is really really bad for me as France. The generic Bre-MAO, Par-Bur, Mar S Par-Bur opening is overall fine on offense and defense, though personally I sort of like rolling Bre-MAO, Par-Gas and Mar-Bur, figuring that bouncing in Bur is pretty decent for me anyway.
For those of you missing out on Discord, we have been talking quite a bit about the ongoing shift to England opening to EC. It seems to be near standard now.

The best solution I've heard that doesn't involve opening to EC from Brest is Par->Gas, Bre->MAO, Mar-> But (which is what you suggested mhsmith). Gives France the best overall flexibility to defend itself, depending on the situation.

Right now, all you can really do as France lately is hope you get 5 units, go into fortress mode, and hope pressure comes from somewhere else (Russia or a stab) to disturb E/G. E/G is nearly a forgon conclusion at this point...
This all checks out but I feel like I'm always on the back foot if England gets in the Channel no matter the opening. Even stuff like a MAO/Gas/<Bur/Mar/Par> position after Spring 01 feels behind if England's in the Channel. I'm coming around to opening there as France, I just want to figure out the best way to use the armies so that in a world where I actually take the Channel, I have a real continuation.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Matticus13 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:41 am

mhsmith0 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:40 pm
If England NEVER opens to the channel, as France I'm probably thinking of going there once in a while but definitely not my main preference.

If England ALWAYS opens to the channel, as France it still isn't necessarily huge to go there defensively; provided England opens Yor-Lvp instead of Yor-Wal, he's almost never gonna convoy to Brest, so I don't have to be super worried about things defensively, at least not immediately (though obviously I'd rather have him not in ENG).

I don't really think that opening to Iberia as France is wise. At least one unit should be on Burgundy (forcing it is probably fine too), because Germany in Burgundy is really really bad for me as France. The generic Bre-MAO, Par-Bur, Mar S Par-Bur opening is overall fine on offense and defense, though personally I sort of like rolling Bre-MAO, Par-Gas and Mar-Bur, figuring that bouncing in Bur is pretty decent for me anyway.
For those of you missing out on Discord, we have been talking quite a bit about the ongoing shift to England opening to EC. It seems to be near standard now.

The best solution I've heard that doesn't involve opening to EC from Brest is Par->Gas, Bre->MAO, Mar-> But (which is what you suggested mhsmith). Gives France the best overall flexibility to defend itself, depending on the situation.

Right now, all you can really do as France lately is hope you get 5 units, go into fortress mode, and hope pressure comes from somewhere else (Russia or a stab) to disturb E/G. E/G is nearly a forgon conclusion at this point...

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by mhsmith0 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:40 pm

If England NEVER opens to the channel, as France I'm probably thinking of going there once in a while but definitely not my main preference.

If England ALWAYS opens to the channel, as France it still isn't necessarily huge to go there defensively; provided England opens Yor-Lvp instead of Yor-Wal, he's almost never gonna convoy to Brest, so I don't have to be super worried about things defensively, at least not immediately (though obviously I'd rather have him not in ENG).

I don't really think that opening to Iberia as France is wise. At least one unit should be on Burgundy (forcing it is probably fine too), because Germany in Burgundy is really really bad for me as France. The generic Bre-MAO, Par-Bur, Mar S Par-Bur opening is overall fine on offense and defense, though personally I sort of like rolling Bre-MAO, Par-Gas and Mar-Bur, figuring that bouncing in Bur is pretty decent for me anyway.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Carl Tuckerson » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:32 pm

Talk me through the English Channel opening some from the French side. I'm coming around to the idea that it may be the necessary counter for France in a meta shifting strongly toward England opening there, but I have trouble finding the right proactive follow-ups if I do get there, and also with deciding exactly what my armies are doing. Are they forcing Burgundy and then letting me go for Belgium, are they going deep into Iberia and risking German attack?

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by mhsmith0 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:23 pm

As England, if Russia opens up north, you're probably in enough trouble that even that build won't save you... but usually he won't open north.

As England, if France opens to the channel (and France has a decent incentive to do so, I feel like I'd probably do it 25-33% of the time as France for how powerful an opening it can be if it gets pulled off correctly), it's incredibly hard to dislodge him and you're probably gonna lose, build or no build.

I also kinda feel like if I'm in a world where France AND Russia open north, I'd rather block France and then got blocked in turn from Norway, and just dance around defensively until the attacking coalition gets bored or *SOMETHING ELSE* happens (Russia getting overwhelmed in the south; Italy attacking France; Austria attacking Germany; F/G falling out; etc) to save me.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Carl Tuckerson » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:53 pm

I think England must get Norway in 1901 so that he can build a third fleet, but once he has the third fleet, losing Norway and being forced to disband the army that takes it is not damning as long as Russia isn't churning out northern fleets.

I also think Russia shouldn't open north. I don't remember if I followed up on this topic after the Russia thread, but I've since become convinced that sending an army north gains less than what you potentially lose in the south. Russia needs to cover Black Sea, and Russia's position becomes awkward if you don't bounce Austria out of Galicia unless you have armies in Warsaw and Ukraine (as you must now choose from among covering Warsaw, covering Black Sea, and taking Romania), at which point there's no reason not to bounce Galicia.

That said, I never quite feel fully comfortable opening to the Channel with England, because if Russia does decide to shake things up by opening north, things go south for you very fast.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by mhsmith0 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:01 pm

Specifically, based on fall 1901 moves it can be a very good or very bad option to block.

Vacated ENG = let Russia in most of time
Russia blatantly allying w turkey and Austria already looks doomed? Bounce
Etc.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Claesar » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:52 pm

Restitution wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:40 pm
swordsman3003 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:30 pm
But I think the average player thinks that the purpose of opening KIE>DEN is to block Russia from getting Sweden and robotically executes this tactic every match.
What is the purpose, if not this?
To have that option. Doesn't mean you must always do it. If I ate icecream as often as I could, I'd be morbidly obese.

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Restitution » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:40 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:30 pm
But I think the average player thinks that the purpose of opening KIE>DEN is to block Russia from getting Sweden and robotically executes this tactic every match.
What is the purpose, if not this?

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by Restitution » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:35 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:53 am
I don’t want to hear it about how England has “no choice” but to attack all-out in the east and hope to make so many builds so fast that France can be contained. I always open to English Channel and do very well as England gunboat.
What do you do after opening to English? Do you open North Sea, English, Wales and then try to convoy into France? Or do you try to convoy through English to Belgium while taking Norway with a fleet?

I never know what to do with that freakin' army as England!

Re: Next level of gunboat metagame

by mhsmith0 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:26 pm

There's always a risk. But "Russia gets strong" is less of a risk than "France gets strong". A strong Russia will still need to deal with at least one and uually multiple of Germany, Austria (typically strong Russia = dead Austria but not always), Italy, Turkey, and a Russian collapse is often possible even at like 10 center strength if things break a certain way.

Strong France means that England is usually the next target, and Italy typically is under siege or busy in the east. An EF alliance is (imo) quite dangerous for England most of the time. And even if England gets 0 builds... is it THAT much of a crisis? Say Russia overextends to the north and Austria or Turkey eats its lunch down south (or Germany bounces it out of sweden for that matter, and Germany usually SHOULD bounce if England opens south imo)... that Norway center is PROBABLY gonna be open sooner or later. Maybe the result is Germany gets strong, but if that happens France is gonna be fighting Germany, since France is hard to kill quickly, and maybe you get a chance to recover somewhere along the way.

Just my $0.02 though. Also, if France opens to the channel, then as England you kind of NEED to have bounced b/c that's better than a blue navy there. and if you DO get through, then you can potentially support convoy to Belgium, or convoy (given a Bur bounce while sometimes happens) and use ENG to move to Brest or MAO

My $0.02 is the bog-standard Lon-ENG, Edi-NTH, Yor-Lvp opening is optimal for England most of the time in gunboat. Keeps your options open and prevents any realistic worst case type outcomes.

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