Kill France

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Expand view Topic review: Kill France

Re: Kill France

by mhsmith0 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:18 pm

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
'in every situation'
I said time and time again, if everyone agrees to kill France, and they SHOULD because its in their interest
This take is objectively wrong. France is a strong power, but its downfall helps some powers and hurts others. Even if France does well early game, it's by no means guaranteed to reach a solo, and can in fact help clear the board of threats to different powers (Russia is happy to see E/G suffer; Turkey/Austria potentially happy to see Italy suffer; etc)

And even France's most natural enemy (England) can profit immensely from an E/F alliance (IF the two powers are serious about the alliance). Diplomacy is a pretty balanced game (especially when you play with press), with no single power drastically stronger than any other, so "all should drop everything to hold down France" is imo a naive take.

Re: Kill France

by mhsmith0 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:14 pm

In general, power attitudes towards France in press games (some credit to swordsman, in particular his gunboat solo win guide maps, https://brotherbored.com/diplomacy/gunb ... win-intro/ )

England
IN GENERAL, would rather see France dead than alive
Pushing a lot of resources towards killing France could allow Germany or Russia to take over Scandinavia and then kill England after
E/F can be an extremely powerful alliance, typically the result of a successful E/F is a 3wd with a southern power (likely Austria or Turkey), or some time later in the game one stabs the other for the solo or a 2wd

France
As France, I like France to do well :P

Germany
IN GENERAL, would rather cooperate with England to kill France than with France to kill England
An FG can be a quick and easy way to send off England, and if Russia has better things to do than tag-team Germany with France's help, then it can work ok (if FGR work to kill England, then it's VERY easy for that to turn into FR with G the odd man out)
Given that England is likely to benefit the most from France's death, and France the most from England's death, Germany PROBABLY would most like to see E/F fighting each other without much result so he'll have a chance to overtake both as he grows (and obviously, an E/F alliance is disastrous for him, probably the single worst outcome unless he can put together a functional counter-alliance)

Italy
I would say from Italy's perspective, France is a fantastic ally to have and it's entirely doable to chop the board very cleanly 17/17, and there are plenty of 3wd alliances involving I/F (F/I/R in particular can work great)
If France is not an ally, then France needs to go. In particular, an E/F alliance means that France is gonna attack Italy before long, which is obviously really bad for Italy.
Probably more than any other power, Italy's interests wrt France depend heavily on the overall diplomatic picture. Allying with others to destroy France can work great, allying with France and pushing east (while keeping an eye on the western border and the potential for a nasty stab) can work great as well. Lots of options.

Austria
The only north/west power that really can threaten Austria directly is Germany (and even that's rare). The big thing is that to win, Austria is usually gonna have to conquer at least one of Munich/Berlin so “western powers bog down” is generally helpful (if any of E/F/G can lock down Munich/Berlin, there goes the solo shot)
Austria actually can do OK on an E/F alliance for the most part, as it hurts R/I/G, and all three are powers who can be more actively hostile to Austria
Probably the biggest France danger is if France gets a stranglehold on Tunis and can roll up the northern 17 powers for a solo, and Austria in particular tends to be weak over the ocean… but beyond that I don’t see why Austria would be particularly concerned with France, especially in a press game

Russia
France is Russia’s most natural ally (Italy probably a close 2nd, Turkey 3rd, and E/G/A all possibilities as well), and a successful France can hold down both England and Germany (who are threats to Russia), as well as (longer term) potentially Turkey (also a threat to Russia)
Russia can also do very well profiting from an early game Sealion, taking Scandinavia as a price tag for seeing England off (and it’s not hard to join hands with France to kill Germany afterwards, either)
There’s some long term danger of France rolling up Scandinavia, but a couple northern boats can put that danger to bed, and there are plenty of game states whereby France grows so strong that the southern powers NEED Russia to hold off France up north, and therefore avoid attacking Russia in the south.
If I’m Russia, I’d rather see a 10 center France than a 10 center England or Germany, at the very least, though an early game E/F alliance is all sorts of threatening (all the more so if Germany bounces Sweden in 1901 on the heels of a vacated Channel)

Turkey
I don’t think Turkey deeply cares about how France does? France can be a serious long-term competitor for Tunis (a key center in either power’s solo plans), but unless there’s an R/T Juggernaut alliance at work, Turkey isn’t going to be gunning for France’s centers, and an expansionist France can hold down Italy, which can be GREAT news for Turkey.

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm

'in every situation'
I said time and time again, if everyone agrees to kill france, and they SHOULD because its in their interest

Re: Kill France

by Matticus13 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:35 am

You've had multiple, highly ranked GR players say the idea is flawed. Your opening statements about the other 6 Powers don't add up either. You don't seem to grasp the concept of why killing France isn't necessarily good for every Power in every situation. Enjoy your thread.

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:18 am

Effectively saying Germany—>France better than Germany—>England
Russia south better than Russia north
Austria East better than Austria West
Italy France better than any Italy East
England south better than England north

It’s completely fair to argue the different strategies and why messing up the not attacking France is not beneficial for you over the strategy you are employing
And just because it works does not mean it was best

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:16 am

Because it’s in my best interest France is dead, respond then to my points
And yes is it a possibility Russia opens north, SURE, I’m saying that’s less beneficial than just letting England focus on France

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:14 am

And please if you decide to respond do not repeat that first paragraph in our hypothetical world everyone agrees let’s kill France

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:13 am

ReRead my opening arguments and reply to those please on the other powers, and it’s better for Italy to go France and then Turkey, but they won’t always, it depends that is a lot better than a guaranteed Turkish attack

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:11 am

Why would England side with France? To get into a big stalemate? Join in reap the rewards fight later makes no sense to ally a dead power

If England is under attack by Germany and Russia is not the point;

The point is if everyone is attacking France and killing France, is it good or is it bad for everyone on the board; if France convinces someone to act against their own interests that’s a different story, we are talking about if everyone is on board kill France(which they should be) is this beneficial or not?

I have already addressed this point before but if Germany attacks Austria right from the beginning I’m sure you’d agree that’d be silly
But guess what? It happened, are you now going to say well because it could happen all strategies with Austria? Throw out the window!!!!
As it was said before in game scenarios take over strategy, it does not change the point that killing France is in everyone’s best interests and NOT to distrupt the killing of France as you do describe

E/G is destined to die, now and always, and with an Italy jumping on board you really don’t think those three will have some problems? Your a joking right? Russia is the least of their concerns and why would England go after a single territory in Moscow?

Your first paragraph completely misses the point

Maybe Russia faces pressure or maybe he gets helped by Germany to hold a Scandinavia Germany cannot?
Or maybe Russia gets steamrolled
Or maybe England helps Russia storm across the German continent
Or maybe Russia is left a lone and England and Germany go through their war
Those scenarios are MUCH better for Russia than a Russia taking Scandinavia to give France England,
Basically you aren’t weighing the benefits and consequences, keeping France a live is the alternative, meaning France becomes big, there’s a reason why (I believe) France has the biggest solo winnings, it’s because if left a live it becomes a very very dangerous player on the board. Everyone suffers when France is left a live that’s undeniable

Keeping Italy honest against a person whose busy? Or keeping Italy occupied? People want expansion, and you can only keep someone ‘honest’ for so long

Italy benefits a lot more from a dead France than a dead Turkey, and Austria benefits from a dead France because then they can’t get backlogged as so often happens(because Russia focuses south, and the three play kingmaker kingmaker

Re: Kill France

by Matticus13 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:02 am

If England is under attack by Germany/Russia from the onset, they should try and ally France. If Germany is under attack by say England/Russia, they should ally with France. If Italy is under attack from Austria/Turkey, they have no business attacking France.

As Russia, you usually want France to make it into at least the mid-game. If not, you will more than likely face pressure from England or Germany, or both as early as 1902. As Austria, you generally want France around to keep Italy honest. As Turkey, it depends...

Other people have already said all of these things... You're not listening. You claimed that E/G doesn't hold past a dead France, which is nonsense. Plenty of times it continues down into Russia and into the Mediterranean. You also said that if Italy isn't killing France, they are killing Austria. Bull. Lots of times they are busy with Turkey.

Pretty sure you are trolling at this point. At least, I hope you are.

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:32 am

I’ve made several statements here explaining the caveats and you haven’t shown my evidence to the contrary
But in the end if we are talking about a perfect gunboat game; It’s better for every power to attack France
It’s better for Germany and Italy A LONE to attack France than with England, but it’s really bad for England if he does not join on in
It’s better for Russia Turkey and Austria as well because then they get to decide who wins amongst themselves than with an outside power intervening
Killing France of course has negative consequences I’m saying those consequences do not outweigh the benefits and certainly don’t outweigh the consequences leaving him a live leave
If I’m England I should not want to root for France to die quickly, if he does it benefits me but I need to JOIN in, if I don’t then I will lose out quickly so yes it’s better for England to kill France, since it makes complete sense for Germany and Italy to do so, and if he does not participate he also loses out
Better for Russia that a France doesn’t grow out of control and something that as stated before he can only stop the advance not counteract it

Respond to my points please if you feel I’m getting something wrong, I have made no blanket statements I explained it very thoroughly you on the other hand have not

Re: Kill France

by Matticus13 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:51 am

You are making a blanket statement: "The death of France is good for everyone." It's simply not that simple... There have been no doubt been hundreds upon hundreds (probably thousands) of games where that statement fails. I bet you can even look through your own game history and find at least one example where it led to negative consequences for other Powers. If you can't find at least one, you aren't looking very hard...

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:45 am

I do take your point though about Russia being able to stop France easily in the north, the problem is they cant control the South, and thats where the magic happens, also an England + Germany are way more likely to attack each other, than you

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:44 am

mhsmith0 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:57 pm
I think I'd also argue that Austria tends to benefit from France surviving to create problems for Germany at the least, though I'm not 100% on the point (I'd probably guess that the real benefit for Austria is the west being divided, so there's more time to grow and eventually try for a solo run, as opposed to specifically wanting France alive or dead).

But I'd generally tend to think that Austria and France have somewhat correlated success rates (mainly b/c bad things happening to Italy and Turkey is good for both Austria and France; probably also because a strong Austria and France are only likely to compete over Tunis, Munich, and Berlin, which is a pretty short list of overlapping interest centers).

PS I did gunboat solo as Austria once picking up Marseilles for 18, but that also involved France intentionally throwing Marseilles to me b/c Germany stabbed him, so I don't know that it's especially relevant :P - in general, Austria in Marseilles, and/or France in Italian mainland, is likely to be somewhat rare, though probably less so in press games than gunboat)
If France isnt getting killed by Italy, Italy is killing Austria, not a good look for that, if Austria can wrap it up real quick,, which they usually can without Italy they are doing good

By contrast without Italian involvement Turkey also stands a good chance
Basically France dying, makes it easier for them all

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:38 am

not best* but if every power is on it, its best for every power

Re: Kill France

by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:38 am

ssorenn wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:54 pm
you do understand that the board is balanced in a way that all countries are symbiotic there's repercussions to killing any one power off. whether directly or indirectly
I just explained why its best for every single power to do so

Re: Kill France

by David E. Cohen » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:41 pm

To expound on my point, simplicity, in addition to being boring, is the enemy of the solo, unless you are talking about a final push where the player attempting to solo has reduced matters to a purely tactical exercise. You want inefficiency (where inefficiency means other players turning in suboptimal order sets from the point of view of preventing a solo) among your enemies. Tactical, strategic and diplomatic complexity tends to give rise to inefficiency.

The more players still in the game, the more chance there is of players working at cross purposes, of miscommunication, of suspicion, emotion or simple error giving rise to inefficiency. Knowing nothing else about a board, with you at 16 dots, do you think that on balance you would have a better chance at a solo playing against 2 players with 9 dots each, or 6 players with 3 dots each? I know which of those boards I would rather be on!

Obviously, if there is an in-game situation where elimination of a player will increase the likelihood of you getting a solo, then kill away! The in-game situation trumps all.

Re: Kill France

by Claesar » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:02 am

David E. Cohen wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:09 pm
All other things being equal, and they never are, if you are trying for a solo, it is best if no one gets killed at all.
You'd expect that, but a study from about a year ago showed no such correlation. Didn't save the link..

Re: Kill France

by Chaqa » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:57 pm

Matticus13 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:57 pm
This topic is poppycock. At the very least, hogwash. There are no absolutes in Diplomacy.
I don't know, Matticus, I think eliminating France is usually a pretty good play ;)

Re: Kill France

by David E. Cohen » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:09 pm

All other things being equal, and they never are, if you are trying for a solo, it is best if no one gets killed at all.

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