ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

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Expand view Topic review: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Durga » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:38 pm

VillageIdiot wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:12 am
It’s easy to say that, but when you’re deciding on which shark to take a chance in siding with the cutthroat guy who played every dirty trick on the way to the finals definitely gets more scrutiny over the guy who of course will betray me as well, but potentially not quite as early as he seems like an “alliance kinda guy”.
This is not a thing that can ever be solved because no matter what the system or the points or anything, there will always be some person who likes doing a two way. I've seen them everywhere.

And diplomacy is fundamentally a game where your actions have long term consequences. I don't think carebears generally do well, and I expect top board players to all be smart about it. But I can't control how people choose to play their game, and the system I've picked does not incentivize carebear play any more than another system.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by VillageIdiot » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:12 am

It’s easy to say that, but when you’re deciding on which shark to take a chance in siding with the cutthroat guy who played every dirty trick on the way to the finals definitely gets more scrutiny over the guy who of course will betray me as well, but potentially not quite as early as he seems like an “alliance kinda guy”.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Durga » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:29 am

VillageIdiot wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:01 am
Even if it’s not talked about, people will still know who everybody is by year 3 of the finals. Top players often are pretty easily recognizable, especially when you know they’re one of seven people.
Great, and top players aren't going to buy bullshit about 17/17 two ways (I hope)

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by VillageIdiot » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:01 am

Even if it’s not talked about, people will still know who everybody is by year 3 of the finals. Top players often are pretty easily recognizable, especially when you know they’re one of seven people.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Durga » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:06 am

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:07 am
It's anon and you're not supposed to talk about who you are in future games so there shouldn't be collusion like this
That's never stopped anyone in any tournament from breaking identities. Or at least having solid guesses.
Well if I find out then they get kicked out

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by goldfinger0303 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:07 am

It's anon and you're not supposed to talk about who you are in future games so there shouldn't be collusion like this
That's never stopped anyone in any tournament from breaking identities. Or at least having solid guesses.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by goldfinger0303 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:06 am

Well teccles, the benefits of German cooperation would've been one less SC for you or Turkey in autumn 1909. A no build Turkey would've been massive.

As for France, i was trying to get him to force disband Gascony in spring 1910. Either by taking it himself or supporting me there (I forget which). With just two english armies and turkey fighting to the East, changing the stalemate line so that I have control of Spain and Marseilles makes his position in Paris and Brest that much more valuable. Because it greatly increases the pressure on Munich, and changes the stalemate line from your traditional StP-Tunis to the Moscow-Warsaw line. Turkey needs many more armies to hold that one, which would require him to poach centers off of you (to prevent disbands) and prevent you from building.

For France, I think, that was safer than the position he ultimately ended up in with Marseilles. Especially due to Turkey's nature of not recognizing imminent threats and blindly attacking me after I told him my draw was up and was done.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Durga » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:27 pm

It's anon and you're not supposed to talk about who you are in future games so there shouldn't be collusion like this

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by VillageIdiot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:58 pm

Food for thought.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by VillageIdiot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:55 pm

I think there’s a luxury to be had here where visitors don’t have to concern themselves with the side implications of these games being ranked. The home team takes a collateral hit when they gift a draw that they could have soloed in that it would have improved their site rankings while a guest can enjoy the cost free benefits of having a carebear reputation and stacking the deck in the coming rounds with somebody they both know they can work with and somebody they can beat.

It’s not a bad strategic approach. I recall first year of ODC Octavious did something similar and it certainly didn’t hurt having that reputation of being somebody to ‘sacrifice for loyalty’ in the finals where anonymity faded pretty quickly.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=158084

He went on to win the whole tournament.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Brumark » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:53 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:53 pm
I would have stabbed on principle. Also, solo wins will be used as tiebreakers.
My general principle would be that I stab if it will help achieve my best possible outcome in a game.

I thought the tiebreaker element as low enough chance that I am equal 7th with someone going into the top board as to be discounted from my thinking. Therefore the best possible result I could achieve was qualification and the 17-17 did that. Perhaps like soloing with more than 18 centres, nice to have but little real impact.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by teccles » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:17 pm

That's fair! I was taking a risk by playing it the way I did - in particular, fighting Germany rather than going with the alliance I agreed with them in 1908. You could have easily ended up with the lion's share of the draw or a solo, but it was also my only chance to get through to the semis. Germany failing to coordinate with you certainly helped me a lot there. France I'm not so sure about - I thought allying with me was their best chance to end up being important to a stalemate line. I'd be interested to hear how you'd have played as France?

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by goldfinger0303 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:12 pm

Hey teccles thanks for the commentary.

I can assure you that most people play SoS like they're supposed to, but I'm just an old curmudgeon who can't shake a habit haha. And those little lies you had to do made all the difference in getting you where you ended up.

The only thing I'll say is that it's a shame France and Germany checked out at the end. Diplomacy with them was almost useless. I found the same with small powers in my other game that drew. Honestly that's the biggest fault with SoS compared to DSS - the little ones have nothing to live for in the end. Had I gotten France or Germany to work with me for even a turn, the ending stalemate position would've been remarkably different.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Durga » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:50 pm

Usually it's DSS that takes forever because trying to eliminate people is a chore. You did well though, congrats! Thanks for subbing in and thanks for the analysis!

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by teccles » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:39 pm

In Game 34, I had a really fun game as a replacement England. It took quite some work to convince Italy and Turkey to take my side in an inevitable war with Germany (talking Turkey out of taking St P in Autumn 1907 was particularly difficult and crucial), and overall I was very happy about how the game went.

One big mistake I made in this game was not seeing Italy's Spring 1909 attack coming. I was thoroughly confused about what Italy was up to - they'd told me they were attacking Turkey, and I didn't see how that was either a sensible plan or a sensible lie. In retrospect, the explanation that they were planning to attack Turkey but also me was the only one that made sense.

One negative for me was the SoS scoring system, which I was playing for the first time. There were a few reasons for this:
  • It made me a nastier, pettier player than usual. A series of small lies while scrapping for the odd SC was not a pleasant way to play the endgame. This was massively exacerbated by the tournament structure, which made every centre from 14 to 16 potentially crucial.
  • It really dragged out the game. We were obviously going to end up in a 3-way draw for the last couple of years; no-one really enjoyed the game in that time.
  • Finally, I was the only player really playing SoS; of the three players who drew, Italy was playing DSS and Turkey really just wanted it over. That made it a pretty weird experience; it felt like I was the only one playing the game I was playing.
Some of that may have been unlucky - perhaps SoS is usually better, particularly when players are use to it - but from my first impression I much prefer the incentives from DSS.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by chluke » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:24 pm

I would never ever stab someone who treats me with honesty and respect.

And if someone does lie to me or stab me, I will not stab back if they apologize and make the repatriations that I request.

This is a game of honor and diplomacy for true ladies and gentlemen, not for lying backstabbing scoundrels.

Props to Brumark and Sweetwatersam for playing the game the way it was meant to be played! I hope I am so lucky as to play with both of you soon.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by swordsman3003 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:53 pm

I would have stabbed on principle. Also, solo wins will be used as tiebreakers.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Brumark » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:54 am

Couple of further things to explore.

Firstly I had five player replacements across my two games was that an outlier or did others experience similar? Durga did a great job managing it but it wasn't a challenge I was expecting.

Secondly on the above, how about a quick straw poll as to what others would have done in my position.

The context for those that don't want to review the game was a two way draw between France and myself as England whether either could easily have stabbed and taken 18 at the end.

I initially had a bad start but offered to Janissary for France, I stabbed to stop the solo but the other powers did not move as I hoped to make this effective so re-sided with France and accepted an offer for a two way draw.

At the end I was faced with the following situation
1. I knew France wouldn't stab me as he could have done so much earlier from any point I originally stabbed
2. I knew 50 points was sufficient to guarantee me a place in the next round

So who would have stabbed France for the solo? As I said in the context of a tournament when the current result progresses you.

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Brumark » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:36 pm

Durga wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:55 pm
swordsman3003 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:12 pm
I just want to say that...
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=237254
....I can't believe I sort of actually know these two jokers and saw this result. Made my day.

I really enjoyed seeing this Brumark and Sweetwater. Very funny. You'd never see me do this, but still I enjoyed it. Says a lot about your character.
I'd never do this either, but hey... Good Playdip x Webdip result here
Ha yeh, Sweetwater will have to speak for himself but I was suprised (but obviously very glad) he didnt take the solo earlier after I stabbed and no one else seemed to want to defend.

In terms of myself the chance only came at the the end and can't say I wasnt a little tempted, (budapest was looking juicy) and in a one off game or earlier in the tournament I almost certainly would have taken it, but I have enough points so why stab?

Re: ODC 2019 Tournament Discussion (finished games only)

by Durga » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:55 pm

swordsman3003 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:12 pm
I just want to say that...
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=237254
....I can't believe I sort of actually know these two jokers and saw this result. Made my day.

I really enjoyed seeing this Brumark and Sweetwater. Very funny. You'd never see me do this, but still I enjoyed it. Says a lot about your character.
I'd never do this either, but hey... Good Playdip x Webdip result here

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