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Finished: 05 PM Sat 25 Feb 12 UTC
Featured Big Money-2
2 days /phase
Pot: 5409 D - Spring, 1913, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
02 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1909: You guys just want to quit. I can tell by the lack of communication.
03 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1909: Germany --
I think that the reason that this game is trying to wind down to a 3-way is simply that nobody really has any winning prospects. I mean, France will never be able to get passed Tunis or MUN/BER, I'll never be able to take all Turkey's centers, and Turkey will never be able to sustain a position passed the stalemate line. It was just unfortunate for you that you happened to be the most vulnerable when the time came. Those are my thoughts, anyway.

In regards to your point "There should be a lot more game to play, but it seems like this site is full of "when we get towards the end of the midgame, let's find the 3 biggest powers and just go for the draw." Quite pathetic... and boring." I think it's important to remember that in a high-quality game, a 3-way is typically an equilibrium. Good players know when a country is a solo threat, and when seen far enough in advance, it is fairly simple to prevent. Nature of the beast, I'm afraid.
03 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1909: I think that you find in most games the 4th player usually gives up as well. I'm not your average player. I'll do ridiculous things to either remain, or put the game into disorder.
03 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1909: Well that will give us all something to look forward to
06 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1909: All, I'm sorry. I've not been home all weekend, and I know this is a sensative time. I'm putting in orders to not NMR and am willing to vote draw to move on from this game. Sorry I have not had a chance to read or respond to your messages, but I'm hoping to have time to log in in about 24 hours.
08 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1909: bollocks... there is a solo chance here!
08 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1909: multiple people have a solo chance, i think.

I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them, though ;)
08 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1910: hi all.
will get to messages either late tonight or tomorrow afternoon.
thanks.
10 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1910: sigh
10 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1910: hi all. i'm really sorry about that nmr. i had a bit of an accident yesterday and have severely hurt my ankles. to be honest, i'm looking to draw this game, but i'll understand if you don't (esp. France), so if you prefer i can try and find a replacement if these pain meds don;t kick in soon.
10 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1910: I hope you feel better soon. Would you like a pause for a week or something?

I'm ok with a draw, a pause, or a replacement.
10 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1910: well, since you twisted my arm, I guess I'm ok with a draw...
10 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1910: Austria - Sorry to hear that you have hurt yourself. It sounds like you need to get yourself on the mend.

I'm not ready to draw this game yet, but I'm fine with a pause for a week, if that helps you. Or if you want to find a sitter?
12 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1910: thanks guys. i am going to see if i can line up an appropriate sitter. if not, i will try and stick it out -- i'm sure that all these pauses must be getting anoying. i will be sure not to nmr again, but my press will likely go down a lot. thanks again
13 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1910: Hello everyone,
I've found a sitter to take over in this game for me. For what it's worth, I can vouch for the quality of his play and I'm sure he'll do as well (ok, better) than me. Be aware that any promises I made are now null & void!

Thank you all for an entertaining game. gl
15 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1910: I'm currently travelling, that's why I'm not finalising. Back on Friday- I'll reply then.
20 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1911: Oh god. Looks like France is a noob.
20 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1911: France, Turkey and I have formed a stalemate line. No amount of pointless years throwing your units against our Iron Curtain will change that. Either draw now or keep your promise and remove Germany from the game so that we can 3 way draw.

Anything else is just a waste of all our precious time.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: Hi guys, I joined in as russia.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: OK, now that is officially bullshit.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: Russia joined to be a part of the stalemate line so insist on him bring eliminated as well as I...
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: Since I haven't read any previous conversation, and I didn't see them before joining, I'm not willing to be part of this discussion.

Germany, you are right, I joined because I saw I might be part of the stalemate line and I found the risk/award ratio reasonable for risking it. I consider it as part of the game for everyone, and probably if I hadn't joined someone else would have joined. It also has been a realistic risk for all of you in this game, since russia has left, that someone will join. All the the currently playing players should have considered it in every previous decisions. Now, it just happened. Live with it. If I will get eliminated at the end, that will be also part of the game and I considered that previously as well.

Case closed on my part.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: You joined for a quick buck by gaming the system. You had better hope an admin or mod isn't part of this game...
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: Feel free to report it, as long as the system allows to join, I consider it legal.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: I don't think it is illegal, but it is terrible sportsmanship and shady at best.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: I wrote to the mods, on the issue.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: yes it is, I agree, also winning (surviving) because someone leaves the game is not any better. I consider these kind of things as part of the game. Sportsmanship usually breaks when your ally betrays you, when somebody leaves or ruins the game to not to let you survive, no matter if he loses as well. We can have a discusson on this, I will probably agree with you, but what you have to see among the few thousand players on this site, someone would probably join anyway, meaning if not I do, others will. No matter I agree with you, it's awfully against sportsmanship, on the other hand since it's possible to others to do, I'm as an outsider kind of force to do this.


It's pure game theory, every player on this website is playing for more points, and if I don't get them others will, getting an advantage against me in a way, which was open for me as well.

If the others in this game are so fair players, they will figure out how to eliminate me safe, and everyone (including me) will be happy. I'm the product of the rules, not the one making them. Hate the game, not the player.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: keep yapping. I'll be sure to bring this up after the game.

And, for the record, you didn't email the mods, but, don't worry, they already know.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: by 'bring this up', I mean in the forum.

I do agree this isn't illegal. But it isn't as wonderful as you are trying to describe it, either.

Throwing the game is just tactics to try to get yourself in a draw or submit the game to the soloist if you can't. What you did is try to get a few quick easy bucks and a big boost in the ghost ratings.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: For the record I emailed them:

Dear Mods,

I'm kind of reporting myself, and have a question.

I joined a game, with 1 unit and SC left, because I'm thinking that
very last unit of Russia might be the part of the final stalemate line
in that WTA game. gameID=71751

The purpose of joining was cleary to grab some points, a lot more,
what the original bet was. Since the website allows me to do this, I
consider it legal and done according to the rules. Sportsmanship is an
other issue here, of course.

The question is, was this legal?

My view on the topic is: If not me, someone else would have probably
joined, or would join any similar situation in the future. So by not
joining, I actually miss an opportunity, and will have fewer points as
someone other less sportsman. Even though I consider myself as a fair
player, I think this situation is more likely a competition to find
opportunities then actually an unfair move.

On the other hand, in some of my previous games, when I had a country
leaving the game, I have NEVER let "sleeping units" behind my lines, I
always considered them, as someone will actually join in, and move
those units. So my legal view is: it is the playing players'
responsibility, not to risk their positions by leaving 'zombies' on
the map. In my previous games, I always took care of eliminating
zombie units, to avoid situations like this. I think it's a valid
expectation from others as well, and by this view, I think my joining
this very game is 100% fair and legal, and in case I actually earn
some points I deserve them.

Please answer me a statement from the legal (moderator) view, if
there's any limitations for do such things.

Thank you

<signature>
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: you -just- sent it. Probably because I called you on it. But, like I said, they already know.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: I was already writing it, genious, but as you can see it's not a short letter, it took time to write. Jesus!
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: Germany, what you must see is, my joining is not my fault and it is a product of system. What you are blaming on me now, is not something I can change, and if someone else had joined, you would blame him. Meaning whoever joins you blame him instead of blaming the cause of it. I'm sorry for giving you bad moments, but it not my fault.

"Hate the game, not the player" - Will Smith said in Bad boys 2 ;)
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: I think you should just all cancel it...
the first one who broke this game after all was england.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: maybe France can support Germany into Warsaw? that would work as well.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: Turkey, let's support Silesia-Warsaw please.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: I think Russia is fully within his rights to join this game. I even brought up the prospect of something like this happening in my messages.

Austria however is compeltely correct, this game is stalemated, and its up to France how this ends. It is completely fine for Russia to join, for Germany to try to egg the rest of us on in his precarious situation, and for the rest of us not to want a 5way draw.

so we shall play on and see how things develop.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: I agree with Turkey. Russia is within his rights to join this game. Although, I'm disappointed that I now won't know who the original Russia was. I guess it puts a few more points in the pot.

Austria is also right, this game is stalemated. Austria and Turkey can tell me their moves in advance and there is nothing I can do against them.

In my view, Russia hasn't done anything to deserve his place in the draw. I'll be taking Ber with my unit in Pru and retreating back out of StP to Fin and moving to StP from Liv.
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: I will be taking 15 SCs with my lone unit...

Or just submitting to fate at this point...
21 Feb 12 UTC Spring, 1912: Thank you France. I agree with that view. Russia does not deserve a place in the draw and I don't see why he expects we should grant him a place merely because he had the audacity to join a game in such a position.
22 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1912: good game, folks. I tried my best, even went to desperation tactics, but couldn't make it to the end. This was one of the more fun games I've been involved in. I wouldn't mind playing you all in the future sometime.
22 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1912: thx too, i enjoyed this 1 single day :D :D
22 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1912: great game folks. Russia, I actually think you ended up providing a last minute impetus for us to finish up this game, and I still think you did the right thing stepping in.

Germany, great game, and I really appreciated that you fought through to the end... I'm very curious to find out who you are, you did a great job all game keeping up the press.

(original) Austria - we had a rocky game together, but I was immensely impressed with your game-maturity and ability to look past the immediate few turns. I really thought I had a shot at the solo and felt obliged to take it, but you did an amazing job all around getting the result. Specially he early going where we had so much back-and-forth in the game.

(new) Austria - thank you for sitting and finishing this one off.

and France... well done man. We had a genuine shot at a two-way and I think we could have pulled it off, but you took advantage of the German retreat and forced me into going back for the 3WD. I think you could have positioned yourself instead of taking the centers and pretended to go for the 2wd and still gotten a shot at the solo... you were better positioned than I was so it was to your advantage to shoot for it. But great play, specially with a stoic German who put up one hell of a fight.
22 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1912: thx turkey, yeah, i think such move, like a last minute join, makes the ending funnier, also I'm sure all of you has learnt, do not leave zombie units on the map :)

Congrats France.
22 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1912: Turkey's post reminded me to rerun the game from the start. You certainly had some fun and games in the south east, with the alliances changing every few turns.

In our corner, it was more mundane. Early on I couldn't get any real relationship going with Germany. It made it more difficult to believe that he would help me solo later in the game. I thought Russia's play was great, couldnt understand why he just gave up. Disappointing to hold Tun for a while and have to give it up. I could never quite get into the right position. I enjoyed correspondence with both Turkey and Austria throughout, so not unhappy to see how this finally ends. One question, has Austria changed his identity or was this game dealt by a sitter?

I don't understand the new Russia's intervention. This wasn't a zombie unit, it could be eliminated with no risk. At least write to me asking for support to Mos and then send it to all the other players.

Thanks to all - good game.
22 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1912: France I agree... the SE for 3-4 game years was the most intense diplomacy I've engaged in almost ever... and that's saying a lot. I don't have time for an EOG, but suffice to say that I felt I got into a groove and ran the show down there... I had everyone's moves and I managed to get each of the 3 to believe I was with them for almost the entire time... it was an intense negotiating experience there in the SE.

As for the end, I agree with you completely and I think the new Russian player mis-read the situation. warsaw was not a danger nor a zombie unit. it posed zero danger and had absolutely no way of surviving. and I also agree that my ONLY worry was that Russia or France would come up with the plan to move war to mos with Lvn and stp supporting while Ukraine was busy giving support to warsaw. I felt that it was the only way France would or could solo OR Russia could force the game into a 4way draw as then turkey would not have enough units to hold the line.

my write-up in the global tab in russia's defense was ONLY to minimize that option. It was my only opportunity to ingratiate myself to Russia and make him feel welcome otherwise if I had stated what I truly felt (which was closer to what Germany had written) then I was afraid I'd leave the door open to a F/R last minute take-over of Moscow that would be hard to come back from.

anyways.... great game.
22 Feb 12 UTC Autumn, 1912: France I agree... the SE for 3-4 game years was the most intense diplomacy I've engaged in almost ever... and that's saying a lot. I don't have time for an EOG, but suffice to say that I felt I got into a groove and ran the show down there... I had everyone's moves and I managed to get each of the 3 to believe I was with them for almost the entire time... it was an intense negotiating experience there in the SE.

As for the end, I agree with you completely and I think the new Russian player mis-read the situation. warsaw was not a danger nor a zombie unit. it posed zero danger and had absolutely no way of surviving. and I also agree that my ONLY worry was that Russia or France would come up with the plan to move war to mos with Lvn and stp supporting while Ukraine was busy giving support to warsaw. I felt that it was the only way France would or could solo OR Russia could force the game into a 4way draw as then turkey would not have enough units to hold the line.

my write-up in the global tab in russia's defense was ONLY to minimize that option. It was my only opportunity to ingratiate myself to Russia and make him feel welcome otherwise if I had stated what I truly felt (which was closer to what Germany had written) then I was afraid I'd leave the door open to a F/R last minute take-over of Moscow that would be hard to come back from.

anyways.... great game.
23 Feb 12 UTC ...

wow - what an eclectic cast. Would have never guessed Wiz was in this ... now I'm more curious than ever who the original Russia was. I wish there was a way to find out.

Thank you all for a great game, and congratz again to martinck1 for the 17-center draw ;)
23 Feb 12 UTC wow... I'm thrilled that I survived as long as I did with such a class of players! :D
23 Feb 12 UTC What an amazing game. Well played everyone and jmeyersd. Wish I had got in on this when it was set up, fortknox is right, amazing line up!

Sargmacher.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

France
martinck1 (4464 D (S))
Drawn. Bet: 750 D, won: 1803 D
17 supply-centers, 17 units
Turkey
Babak (26982 D (B))
Drawn. Bet: 750 D, won: 1803 D
9 supply-centers, 9 units
Austria
jmeyersd (4240 D)
Drawn. Bet: 750 D, won: 1803 D
8 supply-centers, 8 units
England
trip (696 D (B))
Defeated. Bet: 750 D
Italy
TheWizard (5364 D (S))
Defeated. Bet: 750 D
Germany
fortknox (2059 D)
Defeated. Bet: 750 D
Russia
rokakoma (19138 D)
Defeated. Bet: 159 D
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