Finished: 07 AM Fri 20 Nov 20 UTC
Private Bundevara
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 70 D - Spring, 1914, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Hidden draw votes
2 excused missed turn
Game drawn
29 Oct 20 UTC Autumn, 1903: Moderator: (bo_sox48): This game has been paused by request. If you object to this pause, please email webdipmod@gmail.com and we will unpause the game.
01 Nov 20 UTC Autumn, 1903: Moderator: (bo_sox48): Unpaused.
18 Nov 20 UTC I dont understand why you all insisted on a 5-way draw.. but there you go.
18 Nov 20 UTC Good game everyone!

I confess I'm slightly confused about the ending. For the last few turns I was becoming more confident that Russia intended to whittle me out; then after England showed they were willing Russia was no longer interested?

@anlari - I think it was quite hard to cut people out of this draw safely. We were all so entangled that doing it without you being able to charge back and win was hard.

Obviously, my move to stab England in 1903 was a complete disaster. But I don't really regret it - I think if Russia hadn't attacked me at the same time, it could have gone very well for me.
18 Nov 20 UTC I abhor draw whittling, hate it so much, think DSS should be retired for this kind of nonsense alone, I truly hate whittling.
18 Nov 20 UTC I'm alive only by the grace of England who was a gentleman and could have easily killed me at any time for more points, I count my blessings there, thank you England, from the bottom of my heart
18 Nov 20 UTC I was 100% sure my position was the easiest to whittle as soon as Turkey moved back. Stp + 3 untenable dots isn't a position with leverage. I thought I was easier to take out than Germany.
18 Nov 20 UTC @teccles: understandable, which is why I began giving away SCs and moving away :) You would have had at least one year heads up if I tried to break for a solo.
18 Nov 20 UTC by my estimate England could have taken out all but Ger, or everyone could have ganged up on Ger.
18 Nov 20 UTC I am very curious to hear, why I was bounced out of Sweden off an Armenia opening?
18 Nov 20 UTC I also wonder who complained to the mods :/
18 Nov 20 UTC @jasnah: Right, I see. I read your moves very strongly as intending to whittle me - you were all set up to attack Kiel. But they do make sense as making your own position stronger.
18 Nov 20 UTC That's because I did intend to whittle you. I talked to another player whos much better at the game who convinced me not to.
18 Nov 20 UTC Please pass on my thanks to them :-)

As for Sweden - I haven't particularly thought of a move to Armenia as a reason not to bounce it. I can see the logic - but the decision was mostly made because I expected to be allying with England and wanted an easy time in the North.
18 Nov 20 UTC Death to whittling. Be the change you want to see
18 Nov 20 UTC The change I want to see is to a scoring system that doesn't encourage whittling :-)
18 Nov 20 UTC OK, go off topic a little, I advocate for almost never bounce Sweden. The only situations I would ever bounce Sweden, actually, is if I'm 99% sure it induces England to build F Lvp and suicide into France, or if Russia looks to get two builds in the south. It's England who really needs the Sweden bounce, pretty much neutral to Germany but a great godsend to England, and if I'm Germany why do I care to help England? I can let Russia in just fine.

If Russia gets 0 builds 01 and then totally collapses in the south, before Germany can get there, Austria or Turkey will take all the Russian dots, and then goodbye to solo chances for Germany, because he's never getting War and Mos which he needs for 18. But if Russia is half alive defending his homeland, then he has a decent chance at any point to invade and get the dots himself.

Obviously I only attacked Germany because there was no more future in fighting for my homeland, my game was over by A02 and I consider it due to series of great miracles that I wasn't wiped off the map shortly.
18 Nov 20 UTC And yes, I think WebDip should implement Tribute ASAP and ALL serious GB player should switch to it, played by good players it has the good incentives of DSS but does away with artificial whittling
18 Nov 20 UTC Thanks, that makes sense on Sweden. My thinking is generally that I don't want Russia getting strong enough to defend themselves and/or threaten me; but you are probably right that in gunboat I should be more worried about them holding onto WAR/MOS long enough for Germany to take them when the time comes :-)
18 Nov 20 UTC Played pretty bad, particularly from a strategic point of view as got too greedy too soon. Still when I was left on 4 scs and T was snowballing there wasn't any support to be had so I ended up dying on he battlefield. However in doing so I think I managed to delay Ts advance thus helping prevent the solo. One apology goes to Italy as my ridiculous take of Ven ruined both our games.
18 Nov 20 UTC Austria, I think you had a chance to make it into the draw if you would have rushed Munich the turn that I was in Berlin, there was an opening and I would have been delighted to have you there, because each of us in Munich/Berlin would have gladly supported the other to the bitter end to guarantee that both made it into the draw. It was a good idea you had at the end and to be honest I was expecting you to get into Munich because Germany would obviously support Kiel instead, I was surprised that Turkey blocked you out, don’t know if he was specifically aiming at thinning the draw or if he intended to follow you into Bohemia.
18 Nov 20 UTC Caleb, grateful that you helped me, wondering why you did it? I supposed it was reciprocity after my attack on Germany bailed you out of a jam.

Great end game play by England and France both, by the way, super solid on both of them, I was really bad especially near the end and it's to both EF's credit they stayed calm
18 Nov 20 UTC I was trying to follow / encircle in case he is trying to hold on to Vie.
18 Nov 20 UTC and Austria, it was frustrating that you slowed me down so skillfully, but I think the outcome would have been the same - everyone would have started supporting hold just a bit earlier :)
18 Nov 20 UTC T I agree. To solo with T is pretty tough!
18 Nov 20 UTC I wish you had slowed me a bit more, then we may have ended with a 3 way draw
19 Nov 20 UTC Good game all! I'm coming to the conversation late, so I'll do my best to respond to all the comments directed towards me. If I missed anything, feel free to bring it up again!

teccles summed up my feelings about the draw whittling. I've become less and less a fan of draw whittling, but five is a lot in the end. I felt like it was too much of a risk to try to cut someone out at the end though. I felt confident enough in the final years that we could have safely cut Germany out, but I didn't think it was worth the risk to try to eliminate France or Russia. There would have been too much of a risk of the match getting thrown to Turkey.

@teccles I agree you would've gotten the better of me had Russia not attacked. One thing I like about England is that if you keep a close eye on Germany while keeping France on their heels, you can usually hold off a German attack long enough for them to get attacked. I'm a big fan of the ER alliance. Hell, you don't even really need to be all that cozy as long as you don't attack each other. A Russia that's not aggressive towards England + a France that's on its heels is usually a recipe for success for England.

@seren given that you only had one fleet, getting rid of you wasn't a priority in the slightest. You were weakening Germany, so I was happy to leave you alone! I prefer wrapping up Scandinavia and StP AFTER getting the more difficult centers like Iberia, Marseilles, Tunis, and Germany. Of course, that was never really on the table, given the Turkish steamroll.

@seren again, had I had fleets closer to Scandinavia, maybe whittling you down would have been the easiest. But an attack on you would've taken several years to carry out, which would've given you plenty of time to throw to Turkey. And honestly, of the four minor powers left at the end, I had the least important role in the stalemate lines. I didn't want to go after Russia, only to have France send a few fleets up north. Was that a big risk? I don't think so, but I didn't think the reward outweighed the risk. Once Turkey pulled back out of all of Austria, Germany was the only safe option to cut out by my estimationI given that our units were already there.

I'm a fan of letting Russia into Sweden when Turkey moves to Armenia. Regardless of where I'm at, I don't want Russia collapsing too fast, unless I plan on being in on the spoils.

@seren I helped you out in Fall 1905 in an effort to continue to weaken Germany. As I mentioned before, I'm quite fond of Russia as England when Russia doesn't have a northern naval presence. In those circumstances, I feel like both can work together for mutual benefit. Obviously I wasn't having the luck I wanted in eliminating France, but the last thing I wanted was those pesky German fleets requiring a support hold on NTH again. The fewer northern fleets, the better security for England. In 1906, it became clear that Turkey was cruising towards the stalemate lines. I continued to help you in an attempt to weaken Germany further, hoping that maybe we could eliminate them before forming the stalemate lines. But no such luck there! And yes, bailing me out by attacking Germany sure helped my desire to help you!

@pyxxy, I agree with seren that you handled the end game beautifully! It's a rewarding feeling going from enemies to forming the stalemate line successfully.
19 Nov 20 UTC My AAR is that I'm trying a new gunboat strategy as France where I collapse so quickly that E and G stab the other before I'm dead.

Seren's opinion on Germany not bouncing Sweden in 1901 (for gunboat) is interesting. I would submit this game as evidence to support the opinion. G clearly wanted to ally France in S02, so why not let Russia into Sweden? ;) Note, I'm biased as I was Russia in this game. https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=328456
On the other hand, opening north was already weakening England, perhaps it's not wrong for Germany to see Sweden as an easy target in this situation.

@Germany, no offense intended but I think your stab was a mistake precisely because of your W02 builds. And it's not that you were missing fleets. It's that double army indicted an intent to continue going after Russia, so they smartly tried to bounce you in Silesia. The BAL bounce attempt was ambitious, if that's what it was, @Seren? But you might have foreseen the chance at Berlin :)

Another reason is that England wasn't going to take another center off me for a year. If they do ENG to MAO supported by GAS, and MAO to WES, they've got 3 power to attack Spain and I've got POR + SPA + MAR as my defense. I think you could have spent 1903 crushing the rest of Russia. Maybe even stab in the fall, try for BRE and NWY?

Granted, I expected Russia to defend StP. If England defends against your stab in A03 and picks up StP (meaning you didn't steal NWY), then that's an awkward situation.

Buttttt in the world where you attack Russia, if you continued with DEN to BAL with support, Russia stays in GoB, yeah they bounce you in Silesia but they probably use GoB to retake StP (support from MOS), which lets you slide SWE into NWY. Then in W03, you build hopefully build two fleets from taking SWE and BRE.

Just my two cents on the matter. The stab kept me alive so I can only be so critical of it XD

@England, sorry if there was any confusion during the endgame. I wanted to provoke Turkey and try to get them to move forward again, to wear down their patience and get them to draw without whittling. I don't trust whittling, especially in this situation with so many moving parts.
19 Nov 20 UTC ------
and yeah, it's hard to solo with Turkey. @Turkey, maybe if you sandbox out S06 differently, it might make sense to send ION to TYR? Because it's much more valuable to get fleets unstuck and further west, especially since Austria will eventually fall to your might, and as you pointed out a slower Austrian death might have allowed the north to fatally weaken one of ourselves. Possibly even to your solo advantage.
19 Nov 20 UTC oh hell England posted something, I should have refreshed :|
19 Nov 20 UTC in hindsight you are right. But if you look at Germany in S06, you could see why I wanted to rush north :)
19 Nov 20 UTC How does tribute scoring work, btw?
19 Nov 20 UTC Tribute = https://windycityweasels.org/tribute-scoring-system/
19 Nov 20 UTC Um pyxxy, frankly I fully expected to be dead within 2-3 turns by 1902, nobody can fight every neighbour without losing to everyone, least of all Russia on 3 units. I can't remember what I was thinking but I'm pretty sure I only spent ten seconds looking at the map and said 'who can I suicide on most effectively? Probably Germany' and moved everything toward him. There was no tactical genius here.
19 Nov 20 UTC XD
19 Nov 20 UTC I disliked England least in S02, I find this, so I wrote, 'Bothnia support Norway to Stp', but he didn't take it, so in autumn I decided to just bounce him out, because I could.
19 Nov 20 UTC @France: That's a fair take on my stab. I thought (and think) the army builds were needed to make the stab work - any fleet would set alarm bells ringing in London. I disagree about England not getting builds in 1903 - conquering Tunis and/or St P was somewhat likely - but agree that an Autumn stab might have worked well to stop that being an issue.

I certainly saw Russia's attack as being a real risk. But they were *extremely* busy with Turkey and Austria. I think most Russian players would not attack me in that situation; and jasnah's comment on how lightly that decision was taken makes me think that even this Russia might have acted differently on another day :-)
19 Nov 20 UTC Never sit around waiting for death, if you are 90% certain to be overrun in your current position, pick one person to tank their game alongside yours, and you go out accomplishing something. Defending in the south with two armies as Russia is doomed to failure, I might have tried it though had I had one more army, which I was counting on to get from Sweden in 01, then the year following I would have gladly disbanded the north fleet.
19 Nov 20 UTC Oh yeah, I'm not saying your decision was wrong (and clearly it worked out brilliantly). Just that I think it wasn't at all certain.

My thinking may also have been coloured by a (reasonable) accusation after my last German gunboat that I was too timid in stabbing England.
19 Nov 20 UTC Yeah, I think I'm generally a pretty predictable player, but I agree that most of the time you wouldn't expect to be attacked by Russia there.

Was that accusation from me? I vaguely remember commenting to that effect. Must have been setting up for this game.
19 Nov 20 UTC I wouldn't go to fight England without a third fleet though, save for those rare instances where the stars align and you get a free walk into NTH
19 Nov 20 UTC It was indeed from you, after a 3-way draw where EG lasted throughout.

The tactics of my stab against England were complicated, but I think it would have worked despite only two fleets; to hold NTH in 1903 they wouldn't have done much else, and I could have brought a third fleet through DEN in 1904 while attacking NWY.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Turkey
anlari (8198 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
14 supply-centers, 14 units
England
AleaIactaEst (993 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
Russia
jasnah (192 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
France
pyxxy (475 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
4 supply-centers, 4 units
Germany
teccles (1608 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
Italy
Josafina (113 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Austria
Djantani (420 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
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