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Finished: 11 AM Thu 07 May 20 UTC
War. What is it Good For?
1 day /phase
Pot: 350 D - Autumn, 1912, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by Protein (759 D)
29 Mar 20 UTC Spring, 1901: Hi all, gl!
29 Mar 20 UTC Spring, 1901: Hi!
29 Mar 20 UTC Spring, 1901: Gl all, except those damn dirty French.
30 Mar 20 UTC Spring, 1901: Well that's not very nice, is it?

Good luck to everyone except Turkey then.
30 Mar 20 UTC Spring, 1901: GL HF
02 Apr 20 UTC Autumn, 1902: Congrats to Germany for somehow convincing France to attack England while walking into Burgundy and Belgium.
02 Apr 20 UTC Autumn, 1902: Guess he’s not to be trusted lol
03 Apr 20 UTC Autumn, 1902: I think I am getting a bad press here! Most unfair!
15 Apr 20 UTC Autumn, 1906: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
16 Apr 20 UTC Autumn, 1906: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
16 Apr 20 UTC Autumn, 1906: New England here :-)
22 Apr 20 UTC Autumn, 1908: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
25 Apr 20 UTC Spring, 1909: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
30 Apr 20 UTC Spring, 1911: Thanks for the game everyone!
I enjoyed it, even though I never got a foothold in the game.
Well, you either win or you learn...
30 Apr 20 UTC Spring, 1911: Thanks Germany, well played, unlucky.
02 May 20 UTC Spring, 1911: Have to admit I will be both shocked and impressed if this ends in a 17/17 two-way draw.
02 May 20 UTC Spring, 1911: Me too
02 May 20 UTC Spring, 1911: Surely, one will take an 18th SC for the solo!
02 May 20 UTC Spring, 1911: Great play, France and Russia, by the way!
05 May 20 UTC And now russia takes Tri and the victory
06 May 20 UTC Lol
06 May 20 UTC GG Russia
06 May 20 UTC Well played everyone!
I have enjoyed playing with such good players (although I was well beaten!)
A learning experience for me...
06 May 20 UTC Thanks for the game everyone, really enjoyed it (with perhaps the exception of the last phase).
06 May 20 UTC I mean I did tell you it was going to happen when you stabbed me :P
06 May 20 UTC It's such an easy game when played with hindsight, isn't it?

I tried for three-way draws with Russia, first with Austria and then Germany, but neither of those worked out.

So perhaps the best thing at that stage would have been trying for a four-way draw with Italy and Austria.

Of course I was aware of the risk of going for a two-way draw but thought it was worth a try.
07 May 20 UTC I've been playing this game for twenty years and I've seen exactly one 17-17 draw.
07 May 20 UTC Pah, details!
07 May 20 UTC "Autumn, 1908: so...you want Russia to solo?"

Think thats foresight, not hindsight.

Great game all the same.
07 May 20 UTC That's not exactly clairvoyant material though really, is it? As I pointed out above, I was fully aware of the possibility, as I acknowledged to you in my response at the time, but decided it was a risk worth taking. That it turned out to be wrong is only revealed with the benefit of hindsight.
07 May 20 UTC So I should of more explicitly told you it was 4 way or Russia solo?

I thought I was pretty clear my bad.
07 May 20 UTC I said exactly that to you in my messages at the time - wasn't I clear enough that I understood it?

Either you don't understand what I've written above, or you're deliberately being obtuse. Either way, this is getting increasingly pointless.

If you're blessed with such amazing foresight, why did you embark on attacking me when it was never going to succeed, and leave yourself open to a Russian attack? And why don't you have a better record of wins and losses in general?

Anyway, I'm off, thanks for the game all.
07 May 20 UTC I mean I dont want you to get upset, just thought it was an interesting point to discuss.

You clearly think I didnt see this end coming, I would say I did and my press with you shows that, agree to disagree I guess.
07 May 20 UTC I came in as new England and told France the same story immediately.

But that doesn’t matter at all because France chose not to listen to mine or anyone else’s warnings. Which is completely fair no matter if he could see where the game was going or not :)

There was an agreement between Russia and France and they both did very well. Congrats to both, u outlived is all. Congrats to Russia for outsmarting France. It was a beautiful idea a dual draw but this game is about winning ;-)
07 May 20 UTC Thats a much better way of saying what I was trying to say, Thanks England
07 May 20 UTC Right, back again, might as well continue the debate.

As I have said above, obviously I was aware of the options and likely outcomes, as I also demonstrated to you (Italy) in my replies to your messages. My references to foresight are about how easy it is to say "I knew that would happen" in hindsight, when you really don't, you can only guess at the probability.

When new England joined there were still six countries in the game, so unless we wanted to go for a six-way draw, it was necessary to eliminate two or three, with England being an obvious target.

Russia and I then proposed a three-way draw with Austria, which I thought would have worked well, but he didn't want to cooperate on that.

So we tried the same thing with Germany, which although he only had a couple of supply centres at the time, might have worked, especially if he could have made more progress against Austria and gained some more supply centres.

Then it came down to the choice of a four-way draw with Italy and Austria or trying for the two-way draw. I thought it was worth the risk, based both on trusting Russia and thinking I could get myself into a position that would force it. I nearly managed that, but my mistake was allowing Russia to have Berlin and relying on me taking Trieste - if I'd have done that the other way around then perhaps I would have succeeded.

For what it's worth Russia told me at the end that his intention was to go for the two-way draw right till the end when he changed his mind, so I'm not sure how your foresight takes that into account.
07 May 20 UTC And, Italy - can you give me this weekend's lottery numbers please?
07 May 20 UTC Thanks for explaining, can see what you mean now :)
07 May 20 UTC My statement that it was Russia or 4 way was based on my opinion from working with Aus that he would 4 way with me or nothing and the opinion that 2 ways never work and someone always takes the 18.
07 May 20 UTC And there was in my opinion now decent 3 way option then available
07 May 20 UTC no decent*
07 May 20 UTC And nice to hear you donate to charity at the weekends :P
07 May 20 UTC For what it's worth I also think two way draws are mostly a myth. But if pursuing it, then you need to create more counterbalancing weak points. It was clear that Russia would have too many armies in the Balkans and the 18th center for France would have to be charity from Russia. Perhaps it would have helped for France to move to North Sea in 1911 or 1912, to give more options for balance.
22 May 20 UTC Here's that mythical two-way draw for you all (and Russia could have taken the solo but didn't): http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=292985

This isn't intended to reopen arguments or to have a go at anyone, just thought it was interesting that it happened in the very next game I played (which I was eliminated from).

As an aside, I've shared in at least one two-way draw myself, though not on the Classic map.
22 May 20 UTC That is pretty funny that the next game ended in a two way
22 May 20 UTC I was in that one too. First time I've ever seen it. Almost made me wonder if there was metagaming involved.
22 May 20 UTC Oh yeah, so you were!

Italy and Russia certainly did coordinate moves very effectively right from the very start - and I (as Austria) got quickly taken apart.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Russia
Protein (759 D)
Won. Bet: 50 D, won: 350 D
18 supply-centers, 15 units
France
gnuvag (621 D)
Survived. Bet: 50 D
16 supply-centers, 13 units
Italy
DemetriSlavic (124 D)
Survived. Bet: 50 D
0 supply-centers, 1 units
England
Stenrosen (959 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Germany
SalParad1se (260 D)
Defeated. Bet: 50 D
Austria
Antracia (3494 D)
Defeated. Bet: 50 D
Turkey
Heffomite (511 D)
Defeated. Bet: 50 D
Civil Disorders
21StSpartan (100 D)England (Autumn, 1906) with 3 centres.
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