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Finished: 04 AM Thu 28 May 20 UTC
Private VGB03
2 days /phase
Pot: 70 D - Autumn, 1915, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Hidden draw votes
1 excused missed turn
Game won by mhsmith0 (956 D)
27 May 20 UTC This is why I hate hidden draw votes. I had mine up the entire time.
27 May 20 UTC I'm not saying it's not my fault, but I was doing my damndest to signal that I wasn't trying to eliminate you.
27 May 20 UTC Was it the fleet build that did it? Should I have postponed more?
27 May 20 UTC I built the fleet primarily in case you disbanded one and we needed an exta since I wasn't sure what Turkey would do
27 May 20 UTC "Chaqa, I blocked France from Tunis in S1913 only to give you a last chance at stopping the madness, be you still attacked Venice in the fall. So, please, spare me the 'I didn't try to eliminate Italy' bullshit."

What had I done in the preceeding 3 turns to make you think I was trying to eliminate you?
27 May 20 UTC You sail into TYS even though you are not needed there. Only makes sense if you are gonna try to eliminate me. Then you pick up Naples even though you don't need it. Only makes sense if you are gonna try to eliminate me. Then you build another fleet - which most definitely only makes sense if you are gonna try to eliminate me. Then you push me out of Tyrolia by force, even though Mun is only needed if you are gonna try to eliminate me. (Hint: of course I'm gonna tap Tyr for the rest of the game. How could I not?) Then you refuse to back away from Venice - which I took as that you were gonna try to secure Mun before you decided whether to continue trying to eliminate me. (Seriously - why not park the fleet in Alb if you wanted me to feel secure?) Then you send an army to Triest - which only makes sense if you are gonna try to eliminate me. And then you attacked Ven. Every turn, Chaqa. Every turn, you sent signals that you wanted to eliminate me.
27 May 20 UTC But the main point here is that Munich wasn't necessary for the stalemate. At any point, you could have just backed Naples to Apulia and Trieste to Albania and more or less ordered all other units hold. That would have been enough to tell me you were backing off and the stalemate line would still have been secured.
27 May 20 UTC Once you disbanded North Africa, my fleet needed to be out there to help with the stalemate. I built the fleet to replace it in case you disbanded. I did not "attack Venice every turn". I never attacked Venice until you had already doomed the western stalemate and I thought we had to secure Munich or lose. You'll notice I didn't move my fleet at Venice at all. I didn't move to Adriatic. I moved my army to Trieste because by that point I quite honestly thought we had Wusti playing Italy again and trying his hardest to throw.
27 May 20 UTC I didn't try to eliminate you until Autumn 1913 when after two full years it seemed like you had no interest in preserving the stalemate.
27 May 20 UTC You only need four fleets for the stalemate in the south. Even after the disbanded fleet, me and T together had five.
27 May 20 UTC Also - I have in my "Notes" section "oh, France might solo" from Autumn 1907. That's when I first made moves to help the stalemate - moving up to the north and into Tyrr in order to secure the west. I wasn't aware over-fortifying was a bad thing.
27 May 20 UTC No. You had three:
GoL
Tuscany
Western Med

Turkey's fleets were all the way in Anatolia. Why would my fleet NOT come help secure it?
27 May 20 UTC And from what you tell here, I take it you didn't even notice the bounce with F in Tun S13.
27 May 20 UTC I had in my notes “oh France might solo” in like 1905
Then I started seeing things go not according to plan... :P

(Also, fwiw, REALLY good early solo stopping moves from meme, going to gal when I wanted in, and securing western med area WITHOUT stabbing Italy. Made my life MUCH harder...)
27 May 20 UTC If I were trying to eliminate you, why would I:
1. Postpone a build
2. Build a fleet and not an army (when Turkey had plenty of fleets)
3. Not move it to Venice when I dislodged Tyrolia
4. Not attack Venice for two years
5. Try my damndest to get units up to hold Munich instead of attacking you, if it's so obvious Munich was not a good position?
27 May 20 UTC I did notice the bounce, but clearly it didn't matter to you if I did because your next move wasn't to move to Tunis again in hopes of securing it, but instead to move to Tyrrhenian.
27 May 20 UTC '04 was when I started worrying about the French solo potential. This was a pretty goddamn incredible game on the French part, gratz on that! I don't think I've ever seen anyone sweep their neighbours quite that fast.
27 May 20 UTC I tried SO SO HARD to make it clear I was just trying to secure the stalemate while also making sure I wasn't cut from the draw by Turkey, but you kept doing everything in your power to make sure France won (from my perspective).

I was almost as mad at this game as the Wusti one.
27 May 20 UTC Points 2 and 5 are the ones you get the most wrong. You would only build a fleet if you wanted to eliminate me. And you only need to get units to Munich if you want to eliminate me.

And as for 4, you say 'not attack', but you also refused to back off, signaling that the attack was just a matter of time.

Turkeys fleet were close enough to complete the stalemate line. Your fleets where never needed.
27 May 20 UTC Again, you could have just backed off. Naples to Apulia. Triest to Alb. Give Munich back to France. Even in A1913 that would have sufficed to save the draw.
27 May 20 UTC I was super mad when I swept through the north then it looked like I’d have to settle for a FIVE way draw
/vomits
Definitely caught some luck on zigzag type guesses, but I think that there were some good strategic choices involved (backing off to enable Russia elimination, encouraging Austria and not Italy to get Munich, trying to set the stage for potential IA conflict, which I think I needed to have a shot at getting into Tunis). Definitely a really interesting game though (and inn airness, this one being super draining probably also contributed to my burnout in my promising Italy game)
27 May 20 UTC An army could take Venice and threaten Rome. A fleet is purely a defensive unit for Austria in that situation. It would need a full 3 turns to be any use in the stalemate.

What does Munich have to do with eliminating you? I just wanted us to have a safeguard and to make sure I couldn't be cut from the draw. These games have been absolutely brutal.
27 May 20 UTC You're acting like I was some hostile entity when I was justt rying to fix a mistake.
27 May 20 UTC Picking Munich is what allows you to risk loosing Tunis.
27 May 20 UTC You say "you just had to do X, Y, and Z" but there's no way to fucking read minds in Gunboat. In a stalemate, lack of action is an action itself. If I wasn't attacking you, I wasn't fucking attacking you.

Am I taking crazy pills here? This is the second game where this shit has happened
27 May 20 UTC Yet you just said Munich can't be held from the south, so you've already admitted this couldn't be why I was doing it
27 May 20 UTC With how insufferable you're being, I wish I HAD been trying to eliminate you, because if I had been you wouldn't have been able to throw this game to France like you did. I could have build a third unit, pushed the fleet to Adriatic, been in Venice in 1912, and helped Turkey secure Tunis.
27 May 20 UTC I actually assumed you were too stupid to know Munich can't be held from the south.
27 May 20 UTC I'm just going to chalk it up to you not being as experienced with Gunboat per GR.
27 May 20 UTC Fwiw, I think that this sort of format leads to a lot of potential for miscommunications and misunderstandings
Theoretically seeing the same ppl in 20 other games gives you insight into how they see the board
More practically, it becomes overwhelming and really easy to make assumptions about what others are doing/seeing/thinking
TLDR, I think it’s just sort of super exhausting and, well, sometimes shit just happens *shrugs*

I still do feel bad about meme not getting a result though, as I really did hthink he played super well here. Sorry meme.
27 May 20 UTC Fwiw, I think that this sort of format leads to a lot of potential for miscommunications and misunderstandings
Theoretically seeing the same ppl in 20 other games gives you insight into how they see the board
More practically, it becomes overwhelming and really easy to make assumptions about what others are doing/seeing/thinking
TLDR, I think it’s just sort of super exhausting and, well, sometimes shit just happens *shrugs*

I still do feel bad about meme not getting a result though, as I really did hthink he played super well here. Sorry meme.
27 May 20 UTC Lol double post oops
27 May 20 UTC This series and a few others have made me decide to add "hidden draw votes" to my game blacklist. I absolutely despise them.
27 May 20 UTC They would have cleared up any ambiguity whatsoever
27 May 20 UTC The thing to remember is when I took Naples - I didn't know I was going to take Munich. I can't recall exactly why I took it to begin with, but my follow-up moves were pretty clearluy not anti-Italy
27 May 20 UTC I presumed that you took Naples in order to ensure that the game would not be called and you could eliminate at least one Of Russia/Italy (I think more for Russia than Italy here) because you agreed the draw was too big. Was that wrong?
27 May 20 UTC Pfft. My gunboat GR is fucked from the time when I only picked up civil disorders.
27 May 20 UTC Basically, the only guaranteed center swap was Naples so mods COULD have called it for a 5wd if you didn’t. I was thinking you were thinking that the “no 5wd” consideration trumped the somewhat minor risk that I’d be able to somehow finagle my way into Tunis or War/MOs
27 May 20 UTC I honestly can't say why I took Naples. That's why I tried so hard after the fact to not attack Italy.
27 May 20 UTC My assumption is I thought I needed to, but I don't have any notes about it and it really doesn't seem like the move I would make in that situation
27 May 20 UTC GG
27 May 20 UTC Not the first time someone has thrown a game due to your move Chaqa. Maybe some self-reflection is in order.
27 May 20 UTC These two games are very unusual for me. I think it’s the burnout. I’m often entering moves like 3 AM just to make sure I don’t CD
27 May 20 UTC It was way too much of a workload at once
27 May 20 UTC lol Wusti, I’ll admit this ones on me, but the other one was all you
27 May 20 UTC Guys it's cause you eliminated me. 100%. Don't do that. Never eliminate Valis, especially after he valiantly protected the stalemate line with you. It's bad karma.
27 May 20 UTC Basic facts and logic
27 May 20 UTC Picking Naples was the mistake that started all of it, and kudos for admitting that. I don't intend to berate you for it. This series has exhausted all of us (except maybe Valis...).
27 May 20 UTC What’s that? Always eliminate Valis? Can do sir :P
27 May 20 UTC I was sort of hoping Valis would throw to me on theory that after Turkey took Moscow (needed for stalemate line but still), he’d inevitably be whittled if a stalemate line held up. Very understandable he didn’t but I was HOPING... ;)

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

France
mhsmith0 (956 D)
Won. Bet: 10 D, won: 70 D
19 supply-centers, 17 units
Austria
Chaqa (3585 D Mod (B))
Survived. Bet: 10 D
8 supply-centers, 7 units
Turkey
captainmeme (1584 D Mod)
Survived. Bet: 10 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
England
Wusti (1362 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Italy
RoganJosh (3440 D (S))
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Germany
brainbomb (325 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Russia
Valis2501 (2232 D (G))
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
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