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Finished: 10 AM Fri 28 Feb 20 UTC
Sardine Can
1 day /phase
Pot: 50 D - Spring, 2008, Finished
Modern Diplomacy II, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
15 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2002: My draw vote is in.
15 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2002: No, I'm grumpy that you built a fleet in Odessa and I want to march over there and destroy it.
15 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2002: You told me I'd get Sevastopol specifically so you couldn't build fleets, and then you built a fleet. I think this is a plot to draw early so you don't get beat.
15 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2002: Thanks Britain.

Egypt. You demand Sevastopol and Rumania of me, you have a fleet in the Caspian Sea, you propose a convoy to Lapland, and your press is lacking in extreme amounts, your messages to me since Tuesday:

"No thanks"
"And Rumania"
"I'm supposed to get Sevastopol."

How am I supposed to trust that? You're giving me 2 word answers in the form of demands while proposing a convoy to Lapland in the global chat, and then you get upset with me when I defend myself with a fleet in Odessa. It's pitiful.

Not to mention the time you yourself backed down on your word. Direct quote from you in the spring of 1999, "Sure, that sounds good to me. Race you to take out Ukraine?" Directly after saying this you proceed to support Ukraine and gather Britain against me.

To me, you're just trying to manipulate me through a feigned alliance to the point where I'm in such a hopeless position that you can easily defeat me. You truly have no honor. And for what? Spite? Satisfaction? 4 more diplomacy points? It will take years to eliminate me and I'm astonished you would go to such lengths for 4 more diplomacy points or spite.

The creator of Diplomacy himself, Allan B. Calhamar said that if someone solos then you're not playing the game right. I have been true to my word on the 4 way draw since I first proposed it. I thought it was a friendly conclusion to a good game. Only your antics with Ukraine and ongoing petty delusions of defeat have destroyed the chances of that friendly draw.

Your chances of further expansion are all but naught. You have betrayed your ally Ukraine, ruined your relations with Poland, your ally Britain is probably not keen on continuing judging off of the eagerness to draw and the late entering of orders, and another thing that will be kept silent.

So your rationale for refusing to draw is because you are grumpy at me and want to destroy my fleet for the purpose of spite. I’m just a tad bit confused at that statement.
15 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2002: I did race you to take out Ukraine, I took 3 of Ukraine's power centers. You've only gained 1 in the same time. I think I won that race.
15 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2002: And I don't plan on soloing, I'm going for a 3 way draw. Overlarge draws are only fun for the person who's is the process of losing and is desperately scrambling to stop the major powers from carving them up into tiny pieces.
15 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2002: I've been honest with my allies and enemies from the beginning. I only betrayed Ukraine after they left at yours and Italy's insistence, and I still regret it. I'm trying to remove you from the board because you attacked every one of your early neighbours, including your ally and my departed ally, and you only started gunning for a draw when you realised you were in actual danger of losing. I don't plan to give you that mercy.
15 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: I’m going to place my rebuttal: Your rationale for removing me from the board is silly, you in fact did not race me to take out Ukraine, and a 4-way draw is not overlarge.

Your rationale for removing me from the board is,

1. "because you attacked every one of your early neighbours"

The definition of expansion is to attack all of your early neighbors. You attacked all of your early neighbors, Turkey is no longer around. Italy attacked all of his early neighbors, France and Spain are no longer around. England attacked all of his early neighbors, neither Spain, France, nor Germany are here. It is significantly harder to get as far as I am as Poland without attacking Germany and Russia as it is hard for you to get anywhere without attacking Turkey.

2. "including your ally and my departed ally"

I assume you are referring to Russia here? Russia was never my ally. We only had a pact to take out Ukraine early on. I knew Russia was a steamroll type power, the longer you leave them around the stronger they become. I also knew that Russia was aligned with you. This meant that Southern expansion on Russia's part would be impossible and that Northern/Western expansion would be the forced route. I find it implausible that Russia would maneuver every one of his units through Scandinavia and into England so I found an attack in the future to be very likely. Especially since Russia was getting 2 builds at the time, I was a bit concerned for my own safety. So when Russia presents me with an open underbelly in the Spring of 1995 only a fool would not take the opportunity.

And 3. "and you only started gunning for a draw when you realised you were in actual danger of losing"

This is nonsense. As Italy can attest, I first proposed the draw to him in the Autumn of 1999. In the Autumn of 1999 I was in the best position I had ever been in. Hostilities had ceased in the North, Germany was cleared, Ukraine was crumbling, I had a defensive position in Kazakhstan, a sniper support in Moldova, and a friendly Italy to my South. The reason I proposed the draw was because I thought it was a natural stopping point. The board had resolved itself into 4 major major powers and we were all just cleaning up. I was happy with the players in the end, and I felt that pushing a solo was unnecessary and that this game had been plenty fulfilling.

You also did not race me to Ukraine, you actually defended the fact that you were helping Ukraine as such:

Autumn 2000, "Let's say I don't want somebody with 18 power centers and counting - well, counting until now - next door to little old me with everybody else agreed not to fight, and all your armies on my border from taking Ukraine. This is the alternative. And we'll say I was as honest about myself attacking Ukraine as you were when you told Russia you'd help."

This argument is completely valid, and I respect the effort/coalition to subdue my expansion. However, you did not race me. You defended your ally until he left, promptly betrayed the new one, got a few centers as a byproduct of that betrayal, and then cast it to the global chat as an equal race. You then say you regret your decision to betray Ukraine 8 minutes after you just said you won the race to take him out. And if you were really racing me to take out Ukraine then why didn’t you tell me that? Instead you sent the not so friendly quote I have above.

Finally, you claim, "Overlarge draws are only fun for the person who's is the process of losing and is desperately scrambling to stop the major powers from carving them up into tiny pieces." First of all, in a game of 10 players, a 4 player draw is normal. It is akin to a 3 way draw in classic diplomacy, a normal occurrence. Nobody here knows the stalemate lines of this map so a 2 way draw would be probably impossible, and a 3 way draw is dangerously close to a solo and it would just be unnecessary. The board had divided itself into 4 great powers and to eliminate one of them would only take up time for only 4 more diplomacy points for each power. The only reason it was bumped up to a 5 way draw, which could be considered overlarge, was because of your antics with Ukraine.

Secondly, draws are not fun for the losing player when there are players like you on the map. You said, “I don't plan to give you that mercy.” That about sums it up. I need every player to draw and you are too stubborn to do so. So what am I to do in this situation? If I try to defend myself by, example, building a fleet in Odessa, you just get “grumpy” and even less inclined to draw. By what you are laying out to me, if my position is hopeless and I’m going to lose anyways then I may as well just ensure that Italy solos. I have 20 centers, the most of anyone. Someone has to have them. If you don’t draw then the most satisfying outcome for me is to let a good guy like Italy solo. The only reason I have for hesitation is because I would like to include Britain in some way too.

I hope you read this all the way through. And please, I would like to hear your response.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: Well first, Italy was also a neighboring power, and I pursued alliances with both of the next closest powers. You made no allies, only enemies. Second, yes I do wish I'd been able to save Ukraine. But I couldn't, so I took them out, and did so more efficiently, more quickly, than you have been able. This is a tortoise and the hare situation. Don't say I went back on my word when I did exactly what I said I'd do, just in a way you didn't expect.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: And I'll be willing to talk about whether we should take this opportunity to draw when you succeed in removing Ukraine, like you said you would.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: That is exactly what I am saying. I am saying you went back on your word. Let me reiterate, this is what you said to me in the Autumn of 2000 after you supported Ukraine into Donetsk,

"Let's say I don't want somebody with 18 power centers and counting - well, counting until now - next door to little old me with everybody else agreed not to fight, and all your armies on my border from taking Ukraine. This is the alternative. And we'll say I was as honest about myself attacking Ukraine as you were when you told Russia you'd help."

What you're saying here is that I'm too powerful for you to feel safe as your neighbor. You then say that you lied to me about helping Ukraine and that you took the alternative route and used Ukraine as a buffer state. You told me yourself that you lied.

It was only once the new Ukraine came that you told me, "The new Ukraine is an idiot." and promptly betrayed him. There is no tortoise and the hare here. The reason you got more centers out of this was because you lured your “ally” outfield and caught him off guard.

Also, I would not consider Italy a directly neighboring power. I have never seen a Modern Diplomacy II game in which Egypt and Italy have expanded into one another. In fact, the two of you have never even directly interacted with one another to my knowledge.

Spain and France were my allies. They have unfortunately been defeated.

We can discuss the draw right now. I am currently occupying Ukraine’s last center.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: Correction: You and Italy have interacted in Greece and Libya but that was conflict. That does not constitute an alliance.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: Yeah, sorry for that slip up in press. I was writing quickly because I wanted to go to bed. Good night folks. I'll get back in the morning.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: Glad I made the cut. Check out this game, though I can neither confirm nor deny my participation: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=263614
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: Lol, Ukraine controls Liverpool. And an impressive French-Italy alliance as well.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: I would have to agree.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: It seems the great and mighty empires of Britain and Poland were not quite as successful though
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: I’d say that Eastern Europe is a stalemate. Italy’s naval superiority will gradually destroy Egypt, and then it will either become a draw between France and Italy, or possibly including Ukraine.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: And I’m just fine with that, btw.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: I would say the same. Italy and Ukraine are stalemated. But Italy can erode Egypt fairly quickly. Eastern Med pokes Cairo and the Libyan Sea supports Eastern Sahara into Alexandria. Once that army is in the Egyptian homeland then they'll crumble quickly. Especially with Ukraine pressing from Armenia.

I think you're Italy.

I also think it will be a 3 way draw.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: We’ll see. Oh and btw, I want to draw in this game, don’t take my continued unit hostilities the wrong way.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: GameMaster: Game was extended due to at least 1 member failing to enter orders and having an excused missed turn available. This has un-readied all orders.
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: OH COME ON!
16 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2002: Yeah lol. At least it gives me more time to talk :D

And I feel our war has been respectful. I appreciate your enthusiasm to draw.
17 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: okay egypt, vote the draw immediately or both polish and my army will come to your shores
17 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: I’d like to talk about that Bordeaux fleet Italy.
17 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: That fleet won't move anywhere if we're through with the draw vote. If the vote fails, you know where that thing goes
17 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: So your telling me, if Egypt fails to put in a draw vote, you will betray both of your previous allies. A little help here Poland?
17 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: Nah, this was the plan all along. You all thought you were allied with Italy.

If Egypt fails to put in a draw vote then you will both be defeated.
17 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: Also, impressive convoy. Respect.
17 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: I thank you for the clarification.
18 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: Are we still doing the convoy??
18 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: Seems not.
18 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: Poland has rejected Spanish request to fight me when Poland had the upper hand of destroying me and he stayed true to the plan that i hatched, so much so he himself thought that he would not survive in a war with 3 nations as his opponents. unbeknownst to him the plan was not a dud, the plan was still in motion.
his refusal to fight me as a Spanish ally was a great sign of his loyalty and trust to me, the loyalty was a sign of debt. consider this as the payment.
18 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: I accept your repayment loyal Italian with much graciousness!

Italy was always securing my Southern border and distracting Britain down South, giving me time to clean up Scandinavia and secure a safe position. It was that which allowed me to focus on expansion in Ukraine. So I owe much to you as well, our alliance has been most splendid and mutually beneficial!
18 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2003: Alright, you two, you've got my draw vote, you beat me. Let's have that draw you wanted.
19 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2003: Alright, looks like Italy's planning to solo. Poland, you said yourself that my defence around the black sea is impenetrable. Italy's going to overrun my backline if he can, and you're gonna get nothing out of it. Want to help me force Italy to draw?
19 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2003: Im willing to destroy my northern units if we agree to draw.
20 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2004: https://vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=41216
Divided States variant, come join!
25 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2006: Italy, you can still draw, just hit that button. Haha.
25 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2006: Italy, why on earth didn't you move your fleet in North Atlantic to Ireland?
25 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2006: Big oof. I guess this game will take another 2 turns.
25 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2006: Another three, actually, if England moves its fleet to Ireland. England stays in the game until it loses its power centers at the end of 2007. I'm still confused as to why the delaying tactic from Italy.
25 Feb 20 UTC Autumn, 2006: sorry, i was sleepy
it clouded my judgement
25 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2007: We can get these turns through pretty quickly though if we ready up. It shouldn't be too much of a problem.
25 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2007: It's all support holds anyways
26 Feb 20 UTC Spring, 2007: Alright, who's saved but not ready?
27 Feb 20 UTC im glad that ive been playing with you guys
27 Feb 20 UTC Interesting game, happy to have survived until the end
27 Feb 20 UTC Glad to play with you all, very good game.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Poland
WumbologyDude (237 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 17 D
26 supply-centers, 26 units
Italy
fishikan (100 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 17 D
26 supply-centers, 26 units
Egypt
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 17 D
12 supply-centers, 12 units
Germany
Silverblaze (346 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Turkey
dbrandao (136 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Russia
JazisMad (130 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Ukraine
Marski (117 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Spain
Tariq (108 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
France
UnionMXRiech (105 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Britain
KINGIVANOV (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Civil Disorders
Sultan Jones (413 D)Ukraine (Autumn, 2000) with 6 centres.
CmdrLikely (100 D)Germany (Spring, 1996) with 6 centres.
DarkKnight (100 D)Germany (Spring, 1996) with 6 centres.
Gartrenby (130 D)Spain (Autumn, 1999) with 7 centres.
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