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Finished: 01 PM Thu 20 Dec 18 UTC
Private You Only G-Candles Twice
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 175 D - Autumn, 1910, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by swordsman3003 (13174 D (G))
01 Dec 18 UTC Spring, 1906: Moderator: (Szpoti): Paused on request to prevent an NMR. Objections to the pause should be directed to the Mod Team at webdipmod@gmail.com.
01 Dec 18 UTC Spring, 1906: Moderator: (Szpoti): Game on!
19 Dec 18 UTC Hello everyone!
19 Dec 18 UTC I finally get to see your lovely hypothetical faces
19 Dec 18 UTC And hopefully will play with you all again under some lovely hypothetical blindfolds
19 Dec 18 UTC Swordsman, I know you usually address people by name in your EOG statements, but for all intents and purposes my name is Aurelia :) Thank you
19 Dec 18 UTC Ya I really screwed up around Italy, it was finals week and I didn't realize I was essentially forfeiting Tunis by withdrawing when I did. Just trying to get Italy to calm down about me and defend.
19 Dec 18 UTC Hey everyone. Thanks for playing. That’s a short game for an English solo win.

Sorry for smashing you kaley. Once you took North Sea, I had to turn around all my units to push you out. Then once I had moved back to get rid of you, I had nothing better to do than attack you. I WAS ready to play out our alliance and didn’t move to North Sea to show I trusted you ! :P oh well

I’m glad we finally developed an anti-France metagame. If France is attacked hard starting in 1901 the other powers have a chance. Otherwise France is too strong. I recently won a game in this league as France DESPITE getting attacked by England Germany and Italy in the early years. This is a good shift in our metagame.

I think early game for Germany was very strong, and Italy played a good middle game (especially considering how hard it is to balance between turkey and England)

Endgame surprised me. When I was entering my autum 1909 moves, I thought I had maybe lost my chance at a solo win. Then things picked up and turned around really fast after I made some very close, but correct, guesses in the last 3 turns.

David, I think you needed to back down, much much earlier, so that other powers would be willing and able to fight me. When you are playing as turkey in the endgame, it is common to back away All your units (other than what is needed to make a stalemate line) or even give away centers for free so that other powers can form a stalemate line. Turkey has the strongest defense of all 7 powers, and get easily get into a Draw with JUST the 3 home centers. You had 7 centers, which was extremely powerful and far more than you needed to get into a draw. you could not possibly have been safely eliminated by other powers without england getting a solo win.

By holding all your units right up at the front line until the latest possible moment, you kept Austria, Russia, and Italy in existential dread. All 3 of them. You could probably have picked off Russia if you flipped your army into Sevastopol (never take Sevastopol with a fleet - only an army) ... but there was no reason to attack and Intimidate Italy. Were you going to eliminate Italy? If so then that’s a misunderstanding because I would win first. And then If not, then why attack?

Let me go into more detail:
Your 1906 autum Attack on Italy gave me hope for an eventual solo because you were drawing away the Italian units needed to hold a stalemate line against me.
by autumn 1907, I still wasn’t feeling TOO good about my solo chances. True I had Munich and Berlin, but to solo win, England must conquer all the way to TUNIS (or else all in Iberia and MAR plus Moscow), which looked like a very tall order because Italy was strong and controlled those centers, and Russia was mostly intact and defensible. However you kept my hope of a solo win alive by taking Ionian Sea from Italy.

By continuing to attack your neighbors and/or not backing down from your hostile posture, you retarded the ability of italy, austria, and Russia to feel safe enough to go over and block my moves. I took FULL advantage of their fears and freely moved all my units around without getting blocked hardly anywhere. That’s a godsend to England, who normally has a horrible time getting units where they need to be. I managed to get right up against the stalemate line and cross it with a mere 13 units. I don’t think I can brag about winning with just 13 units because, really, I think the defensive anti-england alliance was fighting with two hands tied behind its back (basically none of the Turkish units were defending against me and numerous other units were needed to block the Turkish ones)

By autum 1908 I had an army in tyrolia and a fleet in North Africa, both ready to cross the stalemate line for me. That should have put everyone in crisis mode (Russia and Italy recognized this, and probably Austria too but Austria was surrounded that turn so that’s understandable)

Austria, Italy and Russia had their units awfully close to where they neeeded to be to block me, but not quite because they were afraid to leave their centers unguarded because you looked like you were going to play for their elimination.

So if I were you, in autum 1907 I would have moved as many units as possible away from Austria and Russia. I would never have taken ION from Italy and given it back unless it was somehow necessary to form a line.

The thing is, if you had left Italy alone, you could have played to a smaller draw with me and Italy. If Italy was free to use all his forces to block me, or Austria had sent armies to fight for munich or guard Warsaw, I wouldn’t have been able to solo win. Probably you could have played for a 4-way draw and finished off Russia without scaring Italy. Italy and I would likely have finished off France before voting draw.

Nice job DaddyO in holding out in Portugal as long as you could. That’s a very excellent defensive strategy.
19 Dec 18 UTC I’m trying to give tips as I have learned from experience. I have personally lost games I should have drawn as turkey due to too much aggression. Turkey has an extrmely strong ability to get into draws but as turkey you rarely actually have any centers needed to form the line - so endgame for Turkey is often about giving your allies the space and even the centers they need to defend for you.

I am explaining my reasoning thoroughly not to pick on you specifically David but to teach as much as I can about how to form the stalemate line to everyone who is in this league learning the game.

You played an EXCELLENT early game as turkey (obviously)
19 Dec 18 UTC Not 100% on point but here are my diagrams and maps about solo wins In gunboat. You can see what I’m saying about england
https://brotherbored.com/diplomacy/gunboat-solo-win-intro/
19 Dec 18 UTC I’ll start a new game tomorrow
19 Dec 18 UTC Blake, I am incredibly curious to know why victory against France is not, in essence, a Pyrrhic victory. It just seems to me that the units used to conquer Marseilles, Spain, or Portugal are tied down and of no use in the East and may have to be reinforced if a Northern power takes interest. The East is so far from those centers that taking an aggressive approach to either Eastern power risks overextending and leaving everyone both pissed at you and capable of carving you up.

I must confess that Turkish presence in the Ionian after Autumn of 1907 (when it was clear that I was transitioning West to defend) was crippling to my defense, particularly in that it let England into North Africa and then left an entire fleet useless in Naples. When Turkey finally left it, in Autumn of 1909, it was too little, too late. I guess I was most confused by the fact that Turkey held onto the position when there was no credible threat to its continued existence in the game and no real loss of control from ceding the Ionian to a power clearly headed West.
19 Dec 18 UTC I would be curious to have you rip me apart on this game, as I'll confess to being stymied as to how to proceed with Italy after victory in the West besides defend and pray someone got strong enough to make playing for the draw the focus.

Incidentally, I feel that Turkey's harassment was Karma for my having done a similar thing to Russia as Turkey in a previous game. Nothing feels worse than having perfectly defensible positions and the resources to make them impregnable, but be left hamstrung by a should-be ally.
19 Dec 18 UTC Just a clarification: I felt pretty confident in my ability to stall and await a draw push, but playing for the solo win felt like a suicide mission without some incredible mistake from, say, Austria. Is there a way to methodically attack the East after conquering the West?
20 Dec 18 UTC Here is the link to a new game if someone wants to join. Please let me know

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=233405
20 Dec 18 UTC Re: Italian nabbing of French centers
Most of the time, Marseilles and Spain (and all 3 if you get into portugal) and capable of defending themselves without reinforcements. If France is broken up, which power is capable of taking them from you? Germany can put an army into Burgundy and Gascony, but that's not capable of conquering Mar or Spain - Germany first has to get a fleet into MAO, which Germany would only do as part of a solo-win attempt (and thus you should count on help from other powers to stop the solo). in order to take Spain, England will have to get 3 units into position, like in MAO, Portugal, Gascony, or WMS. That's very difficult for England to commit to, unless England has a ton of builds and is attempting a solo win (and thus you shoudl count on help from other powers). If you manage to get MAR, SPA, and POR for yourself, your position is extremely difficult to overpower with just those 3 units (consider how long FRANCE can linger with control of just those 3 centers)
So in this particular game, Turkey screwed up your strategy be refusing to back down even after I was (in my opinion) obviously attempting a solo win. Don't read too much into that endgame situation, or what I mean is, if my opinion is that Turkey is to blame for tying everyone's hands behind their back, you shouldn't consider your strategy somehow bad. I think it was a good strategy.
Furthermore, the most important centers on the board, as far as Italy is concerned, are Tunis, Marseilles, Spain and Portugal, because with control of all those centers, Italy cannot ever safely be eliminated. A power attempting a solo win (other than maybe Russia) must pass through that area in order to win. If anyone tries to finish you off, you can throw the game. You have all the centers essential to form a stalemate line. Since most games Italy is playing for a draw anyways, you come close to guaranteeing yourself a spot in any draw, no matter whether it is a northern or southern power attempting to win.
In the endgame, the Italian home centers are sometimes indefensible. For that reason, it is far better to be in control of essential defensive positions. Plus you can shift your units either east or west to form the stalemate line.

Also, let me add this: normally you can count on Austria to actually put up a fight against Turkey. If, as Italy, you leave Austria alone to fight Turkey, Austria can do pretty well unless Russia and Turkey are able to form a strong alliance right away. So in this game, Austria played a 100% defensive game from the start, which is NOT an advisable strategy for Austria. So you had an unusual situation where Austria refused to attack Turkey - at all - which let Turkey run wild in the east even though you did what you could to give Austria a chance to fight. To start with, Austria should have blocked TUrkey from getting Greece in Autumn 1901. Almost ALWAYS Austria will take Greece if Italy didn't attack. The REASON why Italy doesn't want to attack Austria in 1901 is the risk that Turkey will become super-charged. So in this particular game, you got the disaster of what happens if you attack Austria without actually doing so, which probably makes it seem like you should have just attacked Austria and got it over with.
But if so, that would be drawing the wrong lesson. Nearly every game, Austria will take greece in 1901 (or at least block Turkey) and proceed to fight Turkey if you leave Austria alone.

Re: Autumn 1907 turkish attack on ION
This was a poor move by Turkey. Turkey should not have attacked you at that point, period. After attacking, Turkey should have backed off immediately.

Here's the thing - in autumn 1907, I was only a SLIGHT solo win threat as England. I had Munich and Berlin, but no centers across the stalemate line (Moscow, Warsaw or Tunis) which is needed to reach 18. So if Turkey wanted to attack, Turkey should have attacked RUSSIA, who was nearly dead, clearing out those centers and setting up for a stalemate line (it is much easier to set up a stalemate line by yourself than to coordinate with another power in a gunboat game).
It is astounding that Turkey attacked you at that point AND JUST YOU. It doesn't make sense. Let me explain:
Maybe Turkey wanted to keep expanding to play for a solo win. If So, then Turkey should have attacked in ALL directions - not support-holds everywhere but then attacking Italy. Doesn't make sense.
If TUrkey wanted to play for an elimination, Italy was the worst possible target, because Italy could not be safely eliminated. Italy has Marseilles, Tunis and Spain, which meant that Italy would throw the game to England before being eliminated by Turkey (now if Turkey is trying to SOLO, then it doesn't matter that Italy can't be eliminated...but like I said attacking only Italy is not a solo strategy)

So to reiterate myself, for my solo win attempt, I was absolutely delighted when Turkey took ION in Autumn 1907, because I knew it was exactly the kind of disruption I needed to be able to attack in all directions and get away with it.

If I had to make some kind of criticism of you on that point Kevin, it would be that maybe you should have kept support-holding ION Sea until Turkey gave up attacking you, even if that meant you would lose centers to England. You could afford to lose Spain and Mar. You CANNOT afford to lose Tunis. That's maybe what I would have done.

re: how to proceed with Italy after victory in the west
Please review this gunboat game I played in October as Italy. In this game, I attacked west, and got a solo win without every taking any Austrian or Turkish center. If you look at the players in the game, you will see that it was a reasonably high-level game, so it's not just a fluke
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=227492

Please also review this 2018 gunboat tournament game I played in as Italy, where I backstabbed Austria immediately after crippling France. It ended in a 4-way draw, but that was probably because it was a tournament game and the players were extremely good and wary of any solo win attempt
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=222868

I hope these 2 examples give you an idea about how to progress after first attacking west as Italy, and that attacking France first often puts Italy on a solo win path (even if the end result is a draw, it still gives Italy a chance), and is NOT a strategy for just playing for the draw as Italy. These 2 examples are among my most RECENT games as Italy AND were high-level games, so I did not just cherry-pick examples to support what I'm saying. I almost ALWAYS try to attack France if I can, and it often gives me an opportunity for a strong game.

To add a related point, attacking AUSTRIA is what usually puts Italy down the path to a draw and nothing more. That is because none of the Austria centers are essential stalemate line centers, and Italy's intent to solo win is telegraphed far too early and is too easy to stop. Attacking Austria super-charges Turkey, which often makes a solo win impossible (indeed, my tournament game where I stalled out after 11 centers, one of my problems was that Turkey was too strong; I think I attacked Austria too early).
Italy typically needs at least one, sometimes several french centers in order to solo win. France is the strongest power in the game, and only gets stronger and stronger as the match goes on. If, as Italy, you don't go and take French centers really early on while you have a chance, there's little hope of taking them later when France is powered up. It is TRIVIAL to defend Marseilles and Spain from a southern power in the endgame if France is intact.

My personal recommendation to get a solo win as Italy is that Italy should either
1) attempt a Lepanto opening against Turkey (convoy in an army to Syria) while allying Austria, kill Turkey, then use extra builds to get centers from France, then either play to a draw with Austria or kill Austria for the solo win (Austria is easy to backstab almost at any point, which is why attacking Austria is never an early priority). This strategy has some risk (Austria can betray you), but if it works you will be difficult to stop in the endgame.
2) another good plan is to attack France first, and then if that works decide whether to a) throw more and more weight westward and go after England b) attempt a lepanto now that Turkey doesn't suspect it c) attack Austria while his guard is down, and hope to do it well enough that Turkey can't profit (e.g., if Turkey is half-dead). This is a play-by-ear plan but can get you into a solid endgame position if you have 3+ french centers. THe major risk here is that Austria is a bad player and gets killed by playing poorly against Turkey and Russia.
3) the last good plan, which is very very strong but hard to pull off, is to FAKE Lepanto at the start. Act like you are going to attack Turkey, but then convoy into Greece or Bulgaria and attack Austria from both the south and west. If this works, Turkey gets nothing and you can attack Turkey and Austria at the same time. It's a huge gamble though because if you mess up then Austria will attack you and you won't have a defense. (Also if you try for this strategy, you will STRUGGLE to get your 18th center, which will probably be MAR or MUN; you're trading a strong early game for a difficult endgame)

re: karma
it's a b****, as they say
next time you get Turkey (or anybody in this league), if you make it strong into the endgame, remember to HELP your allies form a stalemate line by backing off. Turkey has the strongest ability to get into a draw of any power and can defend with as little as 3 centers.

re: solo
in this particular game, with Austria allowing Turkey such a strong opening and refusing to attack Turkey after that as well, there is no way you could have solo won.
20 Dec 18 UTC Molte grazie per la precisa risposta!
20 Dec 18 UTC You’re welcome. See you this weekend

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

England
swordsman3003 (13174 D (G))
Won. Bet: 25 D, won: 175 D
18 supply-centers, 13 units
Turkey
Verseven (123 D)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
Austria
teeccino (100 D)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
4 supply-centers, 3 units
Italy
kbchitown (100 D)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
3 supply-centers, 5 units
France
DaddyO (350 D)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
Russia
Aurelin (95 D Mod)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
1 supply-centers, 3 units
Germany
tennis (114 D)
Defeated. Bet: 25 D
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