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Finished: 04 PM Mon 05 Jun 17 UTC
Classic (Octopuses Welcome)
2 days /phase
Pot: 707 D - Autumn, 1908, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by nmpolo (2086 D)
03 Jun 17 UTC I think it's more 1/3 each of you.
03 Jun 17 UTC Right. The guys who was attacked is a fault. Flawless logic
03 Jun 17 UTC I russia is just sore I didn't roll over and die when he and turkey tried to kill me off. Seriously, Italy, how was that on me? It was boneheadedly obvious that attacking me absurdly stupid but Russia and Turkey did it anyway. Just what would you expect me to do differently? Hand them all my center because I'm such a nice guy? Screw that.
03 Jun 17 UTC Call me names again, Russia and I'm reporting your sexist bullshit to the mods. Actually forget it. I'm asking for a ban.
03 Jun 17 UTC Good luck with that. You are toxic and I hope never to play in a match with you ever again.
03 Jun 17 UTC I called you a name because it is an accurate reflection of my opinion of you. How is it sexist though? Would you have preferred I call you a dick and that would be OK?
03 Jun 17 UTC Now THAT would be a sexist attitude - so take your pick which you prefer.
03 Jun 17 UTC Says the guys who flips his shit if people don't do EXACTLY what he imagines without talking to anyone. I'm not the one spending turns after turn screaming names at people, dude.

Here is a hint: go back on your meds
03 Jun 17 UTC Well all in all, Germany hasn't won yet. Turkey now held his units (Thanks!) and is in a position to take over Sevastopol. Meanwhile Italy can still help me plug the Med and keep Iberia German free. Tricky bit is evicting Germany from Venice.. I actually think the game is lost there, but who knows maybe A/I can think of something?
03 Jun 17 UTC True. Get Turkey to respond and that's an option
04 Jun 17 UTC Good game people.
04 Jun 17 UTC Can't say I've played many where nobody got eliminated at all.
05 Jun 17 UTC Well, i'm not sure good game is what I'd call that. That's the first time when I had multiple players just thumb their noses at repeated efforts to set up a draw. You owe Drewdafish a giant thank you, that's for damn sure.
05 Jun 17 UTC Yeah, I've gotta say Turkey really wrecked this game. I suppose that happens.
05 Jun 17 UTC Ogion wrecked the game - I can't believe someone as experienced as you was such a terrible grudge holding shitlord.
Irrespective of turkeys final NMR it was Ogions inability to move on and resulting throw that ruined the game - not Turkey.
Ogion even still attacked him rather than defend himself. Just disgraceful.
05 Jun 17 UTC Oh right, I see - my win was all down to Turkey and nothing to do with me whatsoever. How silly of me to think I had an impact on the game.
05 Jun 17 UTC Well, we did have a decent shot at the draw had Turkey cooperated
05 Jun 17 UTC Without those last three we could have held the stalemate line
05 Jun 17 UTC I was already well past the stalemate line.

Saying "x only won because y didn't cooperate" is ridiculous. Obviously, as a collective, your diplomacy was worse than mine hence me winning. It's common sense that if 6 people coordinate against the 7th, that person can't win (unless unit composition is really poor).

By your logic nobody ever deserves the win because, since everyone starts of in pretty much the same position, you can force everyone to draw with you so long as everyone else cooperates with you.
05 Jun 17 UTC nmpolo - obviously the incriminations on our side are overshadowing your prowess! My apologies and I offer you congratulations on a well deserved win, ably assisted by Austria :)
05 Jun 17 UTC Nicely done nmpolo. It didn't have to be this way, but MrcsAurelius (France) was a git and decided to attack me (England) instead of working with me against Germany. Faced with options of either getting a defeat or a survive, I decided I'd throw in with Germany and go for the survive. Blame France's greed for that part - he blew a chance at a draw there.
05 Jun 17 UTC Thanks England. England/France made a much bigger difference to the overall result than Turkey, imo.
05 Jun 17 UTC Don't let it go to your head mpolo. You weren't well across the stake mate line because you didn't have any of iberia so Moscow and Warsaw weren't enough. The point is that turkey could have done the draw very late indeed up to 1908. You yourself said you never talked to Turkey so the notion that your diplomacy was better is quite silly. Look, you had a certain amount of luck. France wasn't much part of it.
05 Jun 17 UTC Nearly all solos take a certain amount of look or pure stupidity to win, so that doesn't make this less of an accomplishment than any other. However, the error here was Turkey's
05 Jun 17 UTC Indeed that shouldn't surprise. His win+draw percentage is a meager 22%. He doesn't understand how to draw I think.
05 Jun 17 UTC In fact, in Spring 1906 when Turkey first decided attacking me was smart, you didn't have a single unit across the stalemate line, much less across the minor east west line.
05 Jun 17 UTC Doesn't take away from the fact that you completely threw the game in your little tantrum.

Germany FWIW I totally agree that you won this is the West, and saving France from obliviion gained you his goodwill which made a massive difference. However, you also need to acknowledge the part that Austria played (not Turkey) for refusing to relent and neglecting his own defense, and continuing his revenge pogrom against Turkey and I - bearing in mind neither of us attacked him even once in the final 3 or 4 phases.
05 Jun 17 UTC That is absurd because neither of you have any indication you were going to stop. Attackingnme and then defending while calling me names is NOT the way to get a draw. It was hardly revenge. It was about survival. No way I'm going to sacrifice myself to help you get a draw you cut me out of, Bucko. Would there have been any problem by answering either my or Italy's repeated requests that we work together? No. But you and Turkey flung it back in my face over and over. If you understood math you'd have recognized that I couldn't defend with only three units instead we have themree useless Turkish fleets and some Turkish armies.

You truly know nothing about how this game works. I notice your win and draw percentage is pretty damned low too.
05 Jun 17 UTC Austria - no shit in Spring 1906, when I had 10 SCs, of course if all 6 other countries worked together against me I'd have been forced to draw. That's the case in basically every game. So long as you have the right unit composition (which you probably did not due to Turkey's fleets), you can force anyone with under 17 SCs to draw if the other players coordinate properly.

In fact, Austria, check Spring 1904 when you decided to move pretty much all your units to the centre of the board. What happened? You got rekt. There's more to this game than making it past certain stalemate positions in certain years.

Also, I never said I didn't talk to Turkey. However, I didn't really need to talk to him much since the east was such a clusterfuck anyway.

And thanks, Russia, I missed your message inbetween all the other messages earlier. :)

I find it interesting how so many people can't accept losing in a game (not just diplo - other games I play online too). According to these people, if/when someone wins, it's generally "because" someone else was shit, not because the person who won did anything well.
05 Jun 17 UTC Haha I hear you Germany. Soloing in Diplomacy is often the luck of the draw. In this instance if you made some magic press to encourage the clusterfuck in the East I'd be happy to see it, but I am not privy to that information. So all I saw was your adroit handling of the West, and Austria being a total dick.
At various times it seemed there was a Central Powers thing going, and Italy talked alot but never actually seemed to be able to stop hedging his bets.

I'm interested to hear from you as to the key moments and you play from Italy to the East, because otherwise it was just Austria intentionally throwing this side, but I stand ready to be convinced.

Obviously the persistence of "Austria is being a dick" could be apportioned to Turkey and I from our early Juggernaut, but in cases like these where "the rest" can't unite and put aside their bickering usually has chief protagonists, and in my opinion (of course) it was Austria this time around, and I cite as evidence Russian and Turkish ceasefire which was not mirrored at his end.
05 Jun 17 UTC What a disgrace of a result. And what bullshit Germany won this in the West. I had an impenetrable stalemate line set up. Italy, Russia and Austria didn't defend at all, that's where the solo lies. Completely idiocy that Italy gave Venice to Germany.

And I'm sorry nmpolo, it's always nice to solo, congrats with that, but please don't take credit where it's not due. I blame ogion for the loss, this game was a sure draw, Turkey stopped attacking you last year already. I can't believe you just throw the game like this, it's not how I know you from past games.
05 Jun 17 UTC What was I supposed to do? Move to Vienna and tyrolia and watch turkey and Russia walk into Budapest and Trieste behind my back? They'd already agreed to work together to set the draw in 1906 and then immediately stabbed me, and then refused to talk further. This is what you dingbats really don't understand. Turkey gave zero indication that he was going to work with me instead of try to eliminate me. His last message was that he wanted to expand. He stopped attacking me because I beat them both back. What was turkey going to do, attack me with his one army? That's absurd. That one army meant I couldn't leave any centers open behind me. So, tell me France and Russia , just how was I supposed to defend my border with Germany AND my border with Turkey with two or three or even four units?

Getting the draw would have been easy, had Turkey ever indicate
05 Jun 17 UTC That he was willing to back off as everyone implored him to do. He showed up to move but gave total silence in press. Sorry, but as I said, I don't work to enforce draws I am getting cut out of.
05 Jun 17 UTC 1906: Russia and Turkey agree to work on a draw, and then attack Greeec
1907: Russia and Turkey agree to work on the draw, and attack Serbia
After that: they go silent.

Bullshit anyone would just trust that. They had many many turns to respond to my offers to work together.
05 Jun 17 UTC Mate you need a break from WebDip - seriously you are unhinged
05 Jun 17 UTC Seriously France Russia, lets walk through what it would have looked like. Say I rushed to defend and didn't respond to Russian and Turkish aggression. First, Russo was insisting I hand over Budapest. So, I am immediately down to two centers, Trieste and vienna, with Russians an Turkish units in galicia, Budapest and Serbia. I, what, support myself?galicia supports Vienna while Serbia and Budapest take Trieste, in down to one center. Then I am in the unlikely spot of holding Vienna solely at German whim. But no one has any need to include me in a draw so I am eliminated. So, that's a dumb idea, France

Or start later, autumn 1907, I slide up Albania into Trieste into Vienna to defend, but we still have the Italy Venice problem that Turkey has built another army, has a fleet in Ionian and is giving zero indication that he will back off, so I have to defend while that army moves into Greece and the fleet into Trieste. Germany is in Vaneica because Apulia needs to defend Naples From those Turkish units, since no one knows what they will do. of course dutifully defend while Turkey takes Serbia, since Trieste can be cut? Russia and Turkey have three armies and I apparently am require to fend off Germany while being attacked? Fine, so I lose Serbia, and replay the above one more time. Hell, even if I set the stalemate line, Germany pulls back, I am eliminated and again I've worked to get a draw for my enemies.

So, France, do tell, what are the genius moves that lets me defend against turkey and Germany ata the same time without being eliminated?
05 Jun 17 UTC Well obviously come 1908 you didn't need to defend anymore given Turkeys holds.. Way I see it come 1908 you are the aggressor. I see Russia moving Rum/Sev against Germany and Turkey holding.

What I also see is Italy just giving Germany Venice with two armies next to it (that is up there with the weirdest shit I've seen in my 6 years on this site) and then in autumn you not defending Vie and Trie after Turkey just all held and Russia moved against Germany.

As the experienced player Ogion, its your job to get the newbies (Turkey/Italy) to fall in line for the draw, not aggravate the situation.. This is really on you (and Italy), Ven, Tri and Vie are impossible to grab for Germany if defended - as are Por, Spa and Mar on my side. This is a draw if I ever saw one.
05 Jun 17 UTC I have to side with Ogion in this one. If Turkey and Russia want to play for a draw, then they can't repeatedly stab. In the same position, I'd feel like they wanted the draw, but wanted to thin me out of it first, and wouldn't trust them either. So I blame Turkey the most in this one. If you're going for a draw where Austria is going to be kept in it, there is no point in attacking him to grab an extra SC - the only way to interpret that is you are trying to cut him out of it - it's a greedy move thinking only of the single turn and not the long term.
05 Jun 17 UTC What England said. Austria and I threw the game because we'd been (at least I'd been) putting in quite a lot of effort for several in-game years to make Russia and Turkey stop making nonsensical aggressive moves. Faced with, what, six? phases of consecutive stabs, I surmised that there wouldn't be a draw anyway, and I was wasting my breath on this game.
05 Jun 17 UTC Also, bear in mind France you can't bring someone on board who is absolutely refusing to respond to ANY press to anyone.
05 Jun 17 UTC "Austria and I threw the game..." There is never a reason to fully throw a game in WTA. It means the game is over and you have fully lost, even hinging on with 1 sc is better, because then you still haven't lost. There is absolutely no excuse for you Italy to give Venice away like that. You could have also taken out Austria with Turkey and Russia and swiftly set up the stalemate line - beginning of 1906 for example. The year I start setting up defenses on my side, after it becomes clear England will threaten throw.

You two complain about Turkish and Russian stabs, have you looked at Austria 1901-04, he stabs ALL his neighbors in quick succession. Then Russia defends and holds in spring 1906 defending against Germany and then we see Austria attacking him again. Maybe come spring 1907 Austria has some reason to complain a bit, but for the 6 (!) years before, it's him who is attacking and stabbing everyone around him, completely ignoring the German's offensive.
05 Jun 17 UTC Well, I was trying to solo. If I hadn't messed up my orders I'd have had a good shot too. Ironic that you complain that one of the countries I moved against was Germany (which Russia complained about bitterly, by the way)

And the point was that Italy couldn't have eliminated me quickly enough

The point you fail to understand, France, Turkey, and Russia, is that you have to recognize when a country is critical to the draw before you try to eliminate them. Try and fail and you throw the draw. Russia and Turkey tried to do that and it failed

I offered to work with Russia and Turkey EVERY SINGLE TURN from 1906 on, and never got a positive response. Apparently I should have just ordered all holds and let Turkey and Tussia eliminate me because that would have been convenient for France.

That's utterly unrealistic
05 Jun 17 UTC Gotta love how Russia says I'm unhinged. This is the guy who flipped his shit when I didn't move to Galicia a couple of year back... even though he never once asked that I do so and then didn't get Turkey on board as he promised but instead just sent expletive laden press. Again, tell me France, if you say to a player "we need to work together to get the drawl and the answer is silence on the one part and "You're a count!" On the other. Tell me France, would you take that as "yeah, absolutely, we will stop trying to kill you"? Don't be daft
05 Jun 17 UTC Look, you guys can keep on stabbing necessary powers and you'll keep being surprised when people don't help you get the draw. I've done my TAing already this year.
05 Jun 17 UTC Right, throwing a game, making yourself loose, great lesson! You could have played it like me. Minimize yourself, but in a crucial position. Even one sc in Vienna for you could have meant a drawing position. So why not give Turkey the benefit of the doubt after he did all holds this spring? I see a Turk all holds, after which someone throws the game in a tantrum - completely ridiculous. The worst of all is Italy though, not even in danger of anything and still throwing.
05 Jun 17 UTC What a joke France. If everyone had gotten into draw position and Austria was down to one SC in Vienna, then Turkey and Russia would have worked out something with Germany to allow them to knock out Austria and thin the field in a draw once it was clear to Germany he could not win. There is no point playing for draw for the rest of the board if you're not going to be part of it, and Turkey made it clear he didn't want Austria to be part of any end draw.
05 Jun 17 UTC Let me ask you this France. Why should I have to "give Turkey the benefit of the doubt" when he had already proven his interest in stabbing? Why not ask Turkey while he didn't just respond to everyone's requests to help out? Six turns went by with us imploring some kind of statement that was met by silence. Do you really think that is reasonable play? But sure, it is my fault for trying to make my situation safe. I asked every damn turn for a commitment to the draw. Never got it
05 Jun 17 UTC This is Turkey's last press to me. He clearly wanted to ounces ah me for earlier stabs. Is this the kind of statement, combined with the attacks, that' you'd interpret as friendly? All holds does nothing but protect gains

"Autumn, 1906: Expand or die, unfortunately. I'm not going to sit and wait for Germany to take the rest of you without putting up a fight myself. And you positioned yourself for stabs with your moves right out the gate."
05 Jun 17 UTC Man, this game (or this website, at least), is toxic.
05 Jun 17 UTC Germany - I sympathise - good game well played. nuff said. Wusti out

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Germany
nmpolo (2086 D)
Won. Bet: 101 D, won: 707 D
18 supply-centers, 14 units
Turkey
Drewdafish (378 D)
Survived. Bet: 101 D
5 supply-centers, 5 units
France
MrcsAurelius (3051 D (B))
Survived. Bet: 101 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
Italy
Clownie (295 D)
Survived. Bet: 101 D
3 supply-centers, 4 units
Austria
Ogion (4059 D)
Survived. Bet: 101 D
3 supply-centers, 4 units
England
slypups (1889 D)
Survived. Bet: 101 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
Russia
Wusti (1266 D)
Survived. Bet: 101 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
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