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Finished: 07 PM Fri 09 Dec 16 UTC
Live Classic GB Thurs. pm
5 minutes /phase
Pot: 70 D - Autumn, 1919, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by CSteinhardt (9274 D (B))
09 Dec 16 UTC well done, england! *slow clapping*
09 Dec 16 UTC gg - much respect to Germany for sticking with that position for so long
09 Dec 16 UTC Nicely played. GG. Longest GB I've seen
09 Dec 16 UTC you played nicely, france. england played like a complete idiot
09 Dec 16 UTC g bye to all
09 Dec 16 UTC if you're going to hell, you have my leave
09 Dec 16 UTC thanks turkey
09 Dec 16 UTC thank you turkey.
09 Dec 16 UTC no problem. just don't come back. ever.
09 Dec 16 UTC thank you all for sticking with it to the end
09 Dec 16 UTC GG all, well played Italy I didn't think you'd pull it off. Stubbornness pays sometimes.
09 Dec 16 UTC Once England took StP from me, I kinda thought "fuck it I took over a CD anyways" So I decided to throw it for Italy. Sorry Turkey, you played quite well to survive for so long with a nice stalemate line set up too.
09 Dec 16 UTC russia was smart and defended really well. if england hadn't gone to StP, we'd have forced italy to draw.
09 Dec 16 UTC Just happy I got some of my homeland back :)
09 Dec 16 UTC thx, russia. we were a fine tandem
09 Dec 16 UTC Kudos to you Russia for trying your damndest to stop Italy
09 Dec 16 UTC And Turkey/France of course
09 Dec 16 UTC just don't start thinking you're good, italy. you won only because of england's sabotage
09 Dec 16 UTC Zmaj, fun trying to fend you off a unit short for a ton of years - the game became a lot more interesting when Russia was active, and I'm glad I decided not to profit from the NMR and kill him. But I think you're being a bit severe with England; he didn't turn a draw into a win IMO.

As for the length, yeah, it's 2:40 AM here and I honestly would have set draw about 3 hours ago if I didn't feel so strongly that you should only draw games when it's forced.
09 Dec 16 UTC yeah, you're such a great guy. now excuse me while i puke
09 Dec 16 UTC you're german, aren't you? i can smell that pompous self-satisfaction
09 Dec 16 UTC And Turkey, don't start thinking you're a classy competitor. There are few enough people who play live games and will continue to submit orders for 19 game years that I think we should be trying as hard as possible to make them all want to come back and play again.
09 Dec 16 UTC i'll play with you any time. england is just a retarded noob. i won't shed tears for losing him
09 Dec 16 UTC oh and i haven't forgotten about all the germany's NMRs. too bad we don't know who that was
09 Dec 16 UTC For what it's worth, if I were in England's position, I would also have taken St. Petersburg, expecting that the end result would be a three-way draw, IFE. You're also incorrect about my nationality, despite your olfactory prowess.
09 Dec 16 UTC meh german, austrian, same difference
09 Dec 16 UTC Moderator: (peterwiggin): http://webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=82697
^ the original Germany.
09 Dec 16 UTC why thank you peter! you're a regular snitch
09 Dec 16 UTC Turkey you forgot that France has never moved against Italy.
When i reach North Africa to attack italy ( Tunis-Naples-Rome were all free) France moved his fleet towards London and Edi.
That was the critical point of this game.
09 Dec 16 UTC you want critical points? how about your move from MAO to irish sea in spring 1912, which forced france to defend MAO from italy, as if he didn't have enough trouble already?
09 Dec 16 UTC We're really still on this? No, that wasn't the critical point of the game. It's kind of remarkable, because after 1100 games, I'd have thought that Zmaj would have learned how to read a Diplomacy map. One usually gets better at these things with practice - for example, I can see at least two significant mistakes that I made this game, and I'll hopefully make similar mistakes less often going forward. Perhaps it's this habit of wanting to yell at others after the game rather than actually examine what happened and why which is preventing you from getting better.
09 Dec 16 UTC As a service to the poor people you're undeservedly yelling at, I'll point out that the critical turn was actually much later in the game. Before F1916, there is a 100% drawing line - you can announce your orders ahead of time and I can't do anything about it. After F1916, the game is still likely a draw, but not certain. The only other power who then could have prevented the solo was Turkey -- Turkey has no way to survive the game at that point, but in S17 had an orderset that would have resulted in a game that is again 100% drawn. Past that point, France (and then E/R) made several unlucky guesses in a row against me, where luckier guesses would have prevented the win (even in the last turn of F19, a good guess makes the game a draw), but they were forced to make some sort of guess.
09 Dec 16 UTC i'm not in the habit of reading walls of text, especially when their authors are pompous assholes
09 Dec 16 UTC I may be pompous, and I may be an asshole, but I'm not...what's that last thing you said?
09 Dec 16 UTC Italy, I certainly appreciate your insights here (they don't sound pompous to me). I want to learn from what you are saying. Can you point to what you see shifting in F1916. I think I needed to get my additional fleet into Por and Eng to MAO. After you were in NoAfrica it was too late. Is that what you mean? Thanks.
09 Dec 16 UTC I interpreted England's move to N. Africa to be hostile to France... as any reasonable player would I think under the circumstances (years of bitter E-F fighting, etc.) You have to go through MAO to get there after all.

Not to mention England never actually attacked Tunis, W. Med, etc. but instead took Brest from France the very next turn (Autumn 1908).

But even that wasn't the critical point. That would come later when England persisted in his doomed mission to "Make Britain Great Again" at everyone's expense rather than camping in his island while France did the fighting, which would have been the responsible thing to do.

Tl;dr -- England's attempt at self-justification makes no sense, which everyone knew already...
09 Dec 16 UTC The idea is that you can form a stalemate line, taking advantage of the maximum one unit per territory to create a position that can hold against an unlimited number of units. For example, suppose you put units in MAO, Por, Spa, Gas, Mar, and Bur, and order:

F Por S MAO
F MAO H
A Gas S Spa
A Spa H
A Bur S Mar
A Mar H

Then no matter what I do, I can never make any gains. For example, if I want to get Marseilles, the most I can do is to put units in Pie and GoL, as well as WES which cuts Spain's possible support. So, my power 2 attack is always foiled by Bur S Mar. There are a lot of positions like this on the map, and this is just one example.

In F1916, you could have ordered MAO - Por, ENG - MAO, Bur S Mar, Gas S Spa. Against the orders I actually submitted, you would have ended up in both Por and MAO, which leaves you in exactly the position above. If you did that, then no matter what I did for the rest of the game, I would never get Marseilles or Spain, which would have left me on 17 instead of 18.

[If I knew your orders ahead of time, I could have ordered WES - MAO, bouncing ENG - MAO. But it turns out that you can still create a stalemate by continuing to order Por S ENG - MAO, since that just keeps on bouncing until I get bored and let you into the MAO.]

In the final position, depriving me of Mar would have been enough, because you guys had a similar sort of stalemate line on the rest of the map. I can never reach StP, Ber, or Mun, and so I get stuck on 17.
09 Dec 16 UTC Of course, there are many different stalemate lines you could pick, so you might well ask why you can't save the position in S1917 as well. After all, ENG S MAO is just as good as Por S MAO, so ordering ENG S MAO, Gas S Spa, and Bur S Mar would be good enough to ensure that I never get Spain or Marseilles for the rest of the game, right?

Well, yes, it would. And if you had done exactly that starting in S1917, it's very likely that the game would end in a draw, but not quite certain for reasons that get more complicated. It turns out that if I make some very good guesses, I might be able to eventually force you into a situation where you need to use the Burgundy army to defend Munich instead of to defend Marseilles.

If you were in Portugal, that wouldn't really be so bad. All you need is to get something else (an English fleet or the one you have in Holland) to support the MAO, and then Por S Spa and Gas S Mar is good enough, so that Bur is free to support Munich. But, because you're only in ENG/MAO, you don't have that extra support. There are several ways you guys could have solved the problem (England takes the MAO and you retreat to Por, convoy an army to Por, etc.), but these all take time, and it would have been a close race to see whether you could get to Por first or I could force Bur S Mun first.

Of course, even if I were to win that race, I don't really get something all that spectacular. What I win is exactly one turn in which you can only support one out of Spain and Marseilles, so that if I order NAf - MAO, cut one of them, and order a power-2 attack on the other, I have a 50% chance to take a center. Which you might be able to retake if I only got it in a Spring turn, by the way. :)

So even in S1917, it was overwhelmingly likely, just not quite 100% certain, that the game could be drawn. However, once I got into both the MAO and Spain in S17, there was no longer a way to defend everything without making a bunch of really good guesses about what orders I would pick.
10 Dec 16 UTC Thanks. This is really helpful. I think I allowed myself to be distracted by England (and my fear that he would attack my unprotected rear), but that is a poor excuse, since only I could stop you in the western Med. I needed to make stopping you my top priority and hope he would come to see he needed me to keep enough centers to hold the stalemate line.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Italy
CSteinhardt (9274 D (B))
Won. Bet: 10 D, won: 70 D
18 supply-centers, 17 units
France
breaca (1216 D (G))
Survived. Bet: 10 D
8 supply-centers, 10 units
England
arrakis (1240 D)
Survived. Bet: 10 D
5 supply-centers, 5 units
Germany
Amwidkle (4403 D)
Survived. Bet: 0 D
2 supply-centers, 1 units
Russia
Ezio (1746 D)
Survived. Bet: 0 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
Austria
eeezfly (165 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Turkey
Zmaj (215 D (B))
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Civil Disorders
eeezfly (165 D)Austria (Spring, 1908) with 2 centres.
brkyzgn (2090 D)Russia (Spring, 1909) with 3 centres.
ThoShi (100 D)Germany (Autumn, 1903) with 4 centres.
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