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Finished: 02 AM Thu 23 Jun 16 UTC
Private ODC 2015: Finals, Board 2
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 35 D - Autumn, 1912, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Wait for orders
1 excused missed turn
Game won by Octavious (1720 D)
18 Jun 16 UTC Spring, 1912: It's cool. I think I lost a game before at least once ...
19 Jun 16 UTC Spring, 1912: Game on
20 Jun 16 UTC Rightio. Let's ready up and bring it to a close
20 Jun 16 UTC Good game all. Well deserved win Russia.
21 Jun 16 UTC gg, well done.
21 Jun 16 UTC Cheers for the game, chaps. It was a special one :).

I've knocked up an EoG over a period of several weeks on the occasions I had a bit of time on my hands, so apologies if it's a little incoherent and misses important stuff out. I can't remember most of what was going on at the start anyway!

General impressions, though, is that it was one of the hardest fought games I've been in. Although it's fair to say that the tournament nature of the beast opened up a few extra avenues to solos that otherwise wouldn't have existed, which may have flattered me a little at the end.

Big nod of the head to Valis, who was my pick for the solo for much of the game. I had the distinct impression that the only thing standing between me and hordes of English baring down on me from the north was a bit of good fortune with timings.

Another big nod to gsmx, who managed to maintain my feeling that he was bullying me into doing everything he wanted even when I was winning :p.

But great play from the lot of you. Although I'll never understand why France was so reluctant to fight England in those first few years!

Anyway, EoG time...

From what I can remember, the game got off to something of a below average start. I was one of the later arrivals, which always adds a little to the pressure, so I turned up with initial conversations already in full swing and a truck load of messages waiting for me.

Those messages were the usual mix. A small novel from France extoling the virtues of fighting England, Austria talking about a mad charge at Germany, a collection of bullet points from Germany already asking for what I could give him in return for Sweden, and friendly greetings from Italy, Turkey and England without mentioning any specifics. In short, nothing particularly useful.

Except for a second message that seemed to change tack entirely and started talking about hitting Silesia. Intriguing... A sign of a solid early relationship between France and Austria? A simple desire to get me committed to fighting one of his rivals early, whilst ensuring I don't get Sweden? Who knows. Regardless it was an option worth investigating further...

Or not... After sleeping through the opening messages it seemed that everyone was asleep through my replies... bugger :p.

Still, the usual pleasentries were eventually established. At one stage orders to attack Germany were pencilled in, only to be removed again after running out of time to arrange things properly with Austria. In the end some pretty conservative moves were entered, which probably lowered my standing with France but caused no great harm.

The spring moves across the board were unremarkable. Lots of English fleets moving in my general direction, but it's to be expected. Two major goals for the Autumn. Firstly to secure Sweden, and secondly to establish a proper alliance in the south.

The southern situation was, as usual, as clear as mud. I decided to simplify things a tad. Of the three, Austria was the player with whom communications had misfired the most, so I nominated him my target of choice. I wasn't certain whether a jugg or IR was the best way forward, so pursued both. In practice, this meant agreeing a dmz of the Black Sea with Turkey and encouraging Italy to take Trieste.

In the north Germany agreed to let me have Sweden in exchange for promising to fight England. Fair enough, I thought. It's as good a way forward as any. We'll see what happens...

What happened was Turkey pinched the Black Sea. Bugger, there goes that plan, I thought. Still, although Austria and Italy were now on less than friendly terms, at least Austria didn't seem particularly upset with me. I decided my best option was to turn my guns on Turkey, and do everything I could to get Austria and Italy on side. A couple of centres was all it would take to scupper Turkey completely, which seemed achievable as long as I could count on Italy and Austria for a year. This, of course, would fail completely.

In the north I decided to throw my lot in with Germany. Working with him and France we could quickly take down in increasingly threatening looking fleet heavy England. I'd be happy with modest gains in Scandinavia, and seek to exploit divisions between France and Germany afterwards. This, of course, would fail completely.

So, by the end of 1903 I had been utterly ejected from Scandinavia by an England dominating the north with an unmistakable swagger. Germany hadn't been quite as an effective ally against England as I'd hoped, and I'd failed abysmally to convince France to do anything other than make the occasional interested comment from his western viewing gallery. With tail firmly between my legs I abandoned any hope of northern success, made a peace deal with England that effectively allowed him to take St Petersburg off me whenever the mood took him, and decided to throw everything I had at the south. A victory there and I could still turn the game around.

Sod all was achieved in the South. 1904 saw me turn Armenia purple. 1905 saw it turn back to yellow again. Turkey, by luck or by judgement (and I strongly suspect the latter) was putting up an awesome defence. Meanwhile the uneasy truce I'd hoped to maintain between Italy nd Austria had turned into Austria giving Italy something of a kicking (with French aid, it must be said) and ballooning into a power that looked annoyingly permanent. With a heavy heart I resigned myself to the likelihood that I may never be able to get ahead of Austria, with finishing on a par with him the best I could hope for. It was the kind of deal that as an Austrian I would grasp with both hands. Naturally, that was when Austria chose to stab me.

That stab was a blessing in disguise. It ushered in a new, if a tad uneasy, alliance with Turkey and gave me the kick up the arse I needed to launch a counter strike against Austria. By the end of 1906 Austria was in trouble. 1907 witnessed Turkey giving me the tools to strike a decisive blow against Austrian forces that effectively knocked him out of the war. The jugg of 1901 was back on! Or at least it would have been if Turkey hadn't have stabbed me.

Meanwhile, in the north, Germany was dying. A shame, that.

1908 saw a counter strike against Turkish aggression, aided by a resurgent Italy and Austrian remnant forces. This proved surprisingly successful, and I was finally able to turn my attention to the north where England's stunning performance had all but killed Germany and was finally winning the day against France. I built a northern fleet for the first time in months, and cunningly attempted to disguise any hostile intentions by using my finest diplomatic performance on England. This, of course, would fail completely. England lunged for my throat in the spectacularly ferocious style that he is so famed for. The full force of the Valisian hammer blow, primed and ready to strike for almost the entire game, was imminent.

... and then I won.

I'm not really sure how it happened, to be honest. I had always believed that there would be a tipping point when the general direction of travel would favour someone close to the goalpost, but even so it came as something of a shock. Yes, it was underpinned by a truly gargantuan diplomacy session with Italy to secure support in the south, and the sacrifice of Austria (no idea who the sub was, but he was the worst ;) ), and delicate attempts to keep Turkey's rage pointing in the right direction... but even so the sudden change in pressure for overwhelming to virtually nil took me a little by surprise.

Yay!

Thanks once again, and a special mention to ghug and zultar et al for making it all possible.
21 Jun 16 UTC And ghug, it must be pointed it, is particularly special as he apparently struggles to count to 1. Two solo victories, my arse!
21 Jun 16 UTC Moderator: (ghug): I can't believe it took that long for someone to notice. :P
21 Jun 16 UTC Who is gsmx?

Also, it was a bummer we couldn't get on the same page to start. I think time zones played a big role in that. I much prefer 48hrs for that reason - especially for the first couple of years.

Also, Bo subbed. Not sure what he could have done but it's fitting that he immediately killed me.
21 Jun 16 UTC I was tremendously disappointed with how things turned out, and unfortunately the flow of the game left me playing defense the entire time.
Beginning:
- attempts to woo Italy to quickly strike France failed
- attempts to entice France to attack England failed, even after England convoyed an army to BEL, effectively removing France's opportunity to gain any territories from me
- England never even really pretended, and didn't need to since he had France to do dirty work for him for free, and Russia bailed out completely
Mid-Game:
- it took until 1904, but France finally realized England was just going to roll; sadly, to late for me. I was beaten down, and continued to receive no support from Russia
- a desperate battle ensued, with terrible positioning and little opportunity to do anything but hold the line
1909:
- Italy attacked France, and Russia moved west. Game over
---
Pushing rewind on the game, I would have liked to know what I could have done to convince France or Russia sooner. I have a feeling Russia was bogged down in the south for mostly the game and was willing to wait it out; but France - I thought my arguments were pretty damn good (and prescient).
It is not fun being Germany when England and France are hostile and Russia indifferent.
22 Jun 16 UTC Gsmx is my Playdip name.

I'll be contributing when I get back from my travels, tough to rehash trough all the old messages and a write a novel on my phone.
22 Jun 16 UTC @ mscott

Your arguments were pretty solid, at least early on. An FGR against England in those first few years was very much my preferred choice. But France consistently refused to show any enthusiasm for it, and England put forward some extremely convincing arguments for us to leave each other alone.

As time passed our ability to fight effectively against England faded, mine especially, whilst England's non aggression proposals remained strong, so they ultimately won the argument. After I retreated from the north I never really considered going back until near the end of the game.

There was also a small but real factor of me getting increasingly frustrated by France in those early years, and rather wanting him to be on the receiving end of an English charge as a form of petty vengeance :p.
22 Jun 16 UTC In that same vein a GIE against F was my preferred initial strategy but with the failure to convince E to get involved and dwindling comms from G that first year I'd completely lost confidence in an early attack against F bring anything less that a commitment to a treading water battle for the early portion of the game, hence my knee-jerk decision to scrap any ideas of a CPA and take the easy grab off Austria to at least give me some early value. I'd hoped France would be distracted for some time but 'twas not meant to be. Valis knows I'd made plenty of effort to get him onboard against France but he was stubborn against it for quite some time unfortunately.
22 Jun 16 UTC I won't leave a long EOG but, for me, there were two big failures
1) 1905 - I stab Russia while I'm simultaneously betrayed by both Turkey and France. France let's Italy take Venice (I'll get to this later) and Turkey doesn't support me to Bulgaria. It's the beginning of the end for me and, like Oct said, a great break for him.

2) France's refusal to maim Italy. I'm not sure what he hoped to gain by keeping VI around like that but it ended up being his unraveling as much as mine. We had every opportunity to put him away and Austria is a much friendlier neighbour for France to have.

3) Fine, a 3rd failure. I had no idea what TCS was thinking the entire game. The press was slim and, when I got it, it just about always contradicted Turkey's actions. Maybe it was timezones, maybe it was just fuck ups by me but that really hampered my ability to get things back on track in the east after they started unraveling.
22 Jun 16 UTC And, for bonus snark. A Valis game that ends up in someone else soloing? I'm shocked.
22 Jun 16 UTC I haven't gone back over all the press. So this is how I am remembering the game. The game opening my preference was for an assault on Oct. But I had a very real concern that IA were heading my way. So I didn't help Yonni and decided holding Black was a good way of keeping everyone out. Not necessarily a winning strategy but I had few choices.
VI poked into Aeg and AR were as happy together as pigs in poo. Breaking their alliance was the sole aim. When it finally happened I messed the orders up. Yonni had said I could have Greece and I was supposed to Support him to Rum. At the last minute he almost changed his mind and I got cold feet. Life was happening and I put in a set of orders that attacked both Yonni and Oct. Ooops! I couldn't get either of them to take me seriously from there.
I would have continued to hold them if the promised convoy from Valis had materialised. But his army went on manoeuvres in Salisbury instead.
VI and I have had difficulty connecting in press in both games and as he was not interested in attacking Russia, I decided that I was not going to struggle outnumbered in my corner any longer and let Oct take my dots.
Thanks to ghug and everyone on the site for these ODC games. I’ve never had the chance to play games at this level and I found I learnt a lot from them, too late mostly. It’s a great site and a great community.
23 Jun 16 UTC @yonni - My belief is that France kept me mess with you and provide him the assist in going east. From a tournament perspective you were a more practical target while I was (in theory) a competitive non-factor.

@TCS - Not sure triggered the 'very real' concern of AI attacking you. I was very much interested in attacking Russia early on, just not in plow head on in and get killed off first fashion you had petitioned for. Shame we never managed to connect on philosophy but the throw the dots fallback was completely unnecessary. You were nobody's target later in the game except Russia's (and perhaps Austria when desperation kicked in) and could easily have been leveraged in a stop-the-leader resistance and potentially forced a stalemate had you not firmly closed the door to it. I think frustration and minor personality differences got the better of you here.
23 Jun 16 UTC THE LAST DAYS OF ROME

Italy
You're a control addict who refuses to accept others perspectives who may not align with your idea of "just ram ahead at whoever i think is a bad guy" regardless if that's just a plain stupid way to approach things. I've proven time and time again i know what I'm doing and yet you still sulk every time i don't tow the line of what you think is best and default into this bratty "i'll show you how much of a pain i can be" attitude rather then opening your eyes and seeing it's all setting up fine. You've done more then your share of WAY over-reacting to things and have had serious trust issues whenever i've given you serious offers of alliance.

I've tried to be nice to you because the game requires diplomacy. I've never given illusions to be your best buddy, i know we butt heads, but my willingness to put that aside and be cordial to you being responded to with "our your a whiney teenage girl" reveals more your pathetic feelings of self-entitlement. You've been sarcastic and abrasive this entire time for no good reason and it's the exact reason you've failed so brilliantly in both games. I've failed because you've been such a brat you felt a need to drag me down with you and it's pathetic you feel the need to do that. I've tried both to work with you and in lieu of that seperate myself from you and still you keep coming back. My "alliance" with Russia is a default playing bitch to him in hopes it saves me a couple extra days in lieu of the only other person who could work with me deciding he'd rather fuck with me rather then actually participate in a game.

Your rendition of past game is way different then mine. Truth is I actually wanted to work with you in both games. I had a glowing reference for you from Stackleberg before the game started and thought we would be like minded and good allies, but no matter what i said to you your paranoia impeded a working relationship. And I walked into this game knowing that it made tonnes of sense for us to work together from a tournament perspective since we were both in the same boat and knowing nobody would expect us to align, yet again you ignored all that and clung to your rediculous ideas of hitching your wagon to the tournament leader?? I don't know where you thougth that would get you but it's more then proven to be extremely flawed logic. If you'd put hald as much creativity into your strategy and diplomacy as you do your vengence and mudslinging you might actually have done well.

So enjoy this petty lashing out in your last days, feel good that you got to get your tantrum out and screw over somebody who really doesn't have a shot in the game anyways and doesn't have much to lose by your sulkfest. You don't want to be treated with respect then that's fine, you've more then lost it all by now anyways.

Turkey
Hmmm. Do I sense a little projecting going on there?
Diplomacy players do tend to be good deceivers, some are even better at self-deception.

Italy
So you're going with a "i'm rubber, you're glue" rebuttal followed by a lazy cliche.
I think I can just go ahead and accept this as a won arguement.

Turkey
Now you sound like you're giving a 'proof of Intelligent Design in a banana argument'. You go ahead, believe whatever makes you feel comfortable.

Italy
You have a real knack for unsubstantial cliched responses, but it's still very telling.
What i beleive is that you're a mediocre player who doesn't take failure well and likes to take it out on other people for sake of making you feel better about yourself. People don't throw their game just to lash out at somebody they consider 'insincere' or because they wouldn't unreasonably drop everything to rush to their aid despite being on the other side of the board. Outside of pushing you out of my waters I haven't even caused harm to you all game. No, you're really just a poor sport who wants to make others look worse to help your shitty play not stand out quite as much.
Congradulations, you're successfully a petty dick. This is little more then kicking dirt and throwing the ball into the neighbours yard and it's embarassing to see in a Finals game. What a lame dissappointment you've turned out to be.

Turkey
You've got loads of buttons haven't you. I wonder if I can find all of them. :)

Italy
Push away little man.

Turkey
Hehehhehheeeee

Italy
That's it? Can't even tantrum well.

Turkey
is that the last word..........................?

Italy
Not on my end but you seem to be running dry quickly.
If you're done with your hissy fit then I'm good. Go have your nap, you'll feel better.
For somebody so worked up about being wronged you sure unpuffed your chest quickly. That was just adorable. ;)

Turkey
who's worked up? I think you might want to revisit the press

Italy
*hands mirror*
If you're really struggling this much to articulate your grief with me then perhaps it's really not that substantiated and time to apologize and move on. You say i've a lot of buttons and really i don't, i'm generally pretty easy going, but somebody deciding to shit all over a game that's taken almost a year of energy is a pretty big one especially for what appears to be pretty flimsy reasons. You don't have to "like" me as a person for whatever reason, but this is crossing a line into simply just being an asshole for sake of being an asshole. Try a little sportsmanship.

Turkey
You seem to be under the illusion that I have an interest in your opinions and wish to discuss them with you. I don't.

Italy
I dunno, your actions sure imply you want my attention and desperately wish to make a point. do it the grown up way.

I have reprinted the press between VI and I for the last days. Without it I don't think anyone else will be able to appreciate the 'personality differences' that got the better of me. :)
23 Jun 16 UTC That was... beautiful...

*wipes away a tear*
23 Jun 16 UTC I'm always amazed at how different the game can look from other player's perspectives. I was aware that certain players didn't get on particularly well, but had no idea to what extent.

Aside from the usual frustrations caused by people not doing things that are clearly in their self interest (or at least that's how it feels at the time :p), I don't think I had a poor relationship with anyone.

There was a bit of a tiff with Italy at one point, though. That was fun. A misunderstanding regarding the fate of Greece :).
23 Jun 16 UTC Im actually pretty happy to stand behind that conversation, but in fairness of context that was the culmination of the relationship and post dot throwing. Trith be told that was actually me holding back what I'd thought of him, but bygones and all that jazz.
23 Jun 16 UTC We were all off to such a friendly start with this EOG. Suppose what fun is that? ;)
23 Jun 16 UTC In that case I guess it's only right that I reveal some of the more extreme exchanges in my press. Starting with the fallout of the 1910 breakdown of the non aggression pact between myself and England. Those of a more delicate nature are advised to look away...


(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1910: tsk tsk

(To: England, from you) - Spring, 1910: How rude

(To: You, from England) - Spring, 1910: Rude indeed.
23 Jun 16 UTC And yet you managed to keep StP free! How did you both manage to contain your frustration and personality differences?
23 Jun 16 UTC Fruitcake?
23 Jun 16 UTC Specifically Italian Panettone
23 Jun 16 UTC Fruitcake! Was that an insult?
23 Jun 16 UTC Keep my panettone out of this!
23 Jun 16 UTC It's your panettone that's the problem; lightweight, full of air and only around at Christmas.
23 Jun 16 UTC Was almost a decent burn until the "only around at Christmas part", but then it lost me.
23 Jun 16 UTC They appear in our shops in droves at Christmas; most welcome.
Then we don't see them again, they are presumably busy elsewhere.
23 Jun 16 UTC Not your best work.
23 Jun 16 UTC I'm not on form.
23 Jun 16 UTC Great game (and tournament) to all involved. Kudos to Ghug for managing this and ensuring everything ran quite smoothly despite all the heavy logistics I'm certain must have been involved with running a cross-site game. Loved the concept and the simplicity of the structure. Only change I'd petition would be the structure of the finals since the concurrent games did make the meta aspect pretty insane. Really happy the overlap was minimal due to the 6-way draw.

Big hat tip to Oct for his win. I would personally attribute this to his ability to keep a relatively low profile in a game full of big egos and some pretty keen diplomacy on his behalf. There was a high amount of kingmaking threats, personality head-butting, and some over-playing that managing to keep mostly out of the spotlight and simply focusing on protecting interests and a slow steady growth which really paid off well here.

On with the EOG..

BEGINNINGS: Best Intentions Fall Flat

I found I had a lot of challenges in finding the rhythms of diplomacy with this group. Personal gaming preferences are generally to forge rock solid alliances and play it as far as I can before the unavoidable cracks but in this situation it just couldn't get any traction. No matter if it was suggestions of detailed plans, selfless sacrifices to invest in alliances, heavy wooing and bonding attempts, it was all met with heavy scepticism and would ultimately work against me.

Early in this game I had visions of a central alliance with side alliances with England and Turkey to make for a quick elimination of France and hopefully Russia as it didn't take long to see them as strong players and players I'd rather not see make it too far. Negotiations with IGA went fairly well at first but things began to crumble when E dragged his feet and eventually flat out refused to go in against France and Turkey opted to side with Russia. Germany became somewhat spotty in his availability the first year which ended up being enough to destroy any confidence I had in the CPA route. Things with A were fine but IA doesn't generally hold much strength alone so when R tipped me off
of the probable empty Trieste I opted to take the shot in hopes it could at least add some value for me as i attempted to continue to shop my services around.

MIDGAME: Gun for Hire...anybody??

Things didn't go that well for me come mid-game as despite having peaceful relations with France at the time he began to slowly break agreements and test boundaries which I knew was heading in a bad way. I attempted to plant seeds for anti-EF and anti-Russia campaigns but just couldn't get any long term traction. I got a lot of requests to try to suicide bomb myself into (insert bad guy country here) but nobody wanted to work out any real sustainable plans that didn't go further then me being a distraction to help them survive longer. Options were short.

THE END: Brink of Death to Humble Silver Medal

Eventfully I would get whittled down to two centres and had to take a hard tack to stay alive. Philosophically I took on a very defeatist attitude, which actually was mostly legitimate since the road back was extremely steep. But i did find that opened up a lot more diplomatic doors for me so I began to run with it a bit. Since I was nobodies threat I was able to start selling my soul to stay alive and playing some players against each other. France against Austria with deals to help him across stalemate lines, England and France playing off their friction, and eventually help encourage Russia to turn on Austria for the death blow. I'd kept the door open for a big stop-the-leader crusade against Russia as long as I could but dysfunction was far too deep with Valis super angry towards PW, TCS's questionable vendetta against me where he'd practically killed himself in both rounds to act as an anchor to my game, and Yonni taking up arms against anybody without a draw vote up. Things looked pessimistic.

There was almost a resurgence with FEI rising up against Russia near the end but first chance he got France prematurely took grabs off me and England to solidify his numbers for the end standings while Oct wisely resisted attacks which won him full support of both of us for his solo at the expense of PW's elimination. I'd just known it couldn't work anymore, Valis was off the deep-end looking for revenge at all costs. At this point with any hopes dashed I'd taken on the next best goal of seeking a second place standing for myself, which after practically eliminated in both games still seemed quite an accomplishment. With some deals made with England and Russia that luckily both honoured I was able to meet that goal and wave the PlayDip flag on the sub-podium (for whatever that's worth). It's no tournament win but it's better then a kick in the teeth.

Next time!
24 Jun 16 UTC So let me ask:
What compelled you Valis and VI to throw the game? To be fair to them, it was probably too late anyway when they hard charged for PW; nonetheless, it did not strike me that a "suicide is the best option" was, in fact, the best option. It seemed specifically that Valis just ignored my comments to the effect that he was facilitating a Russia solo; his responses suggested that he wanted to intentionally sabatoge the game: why?
24 Jun 16 UTC Don't question why Valis does things. Just be thankful that you were eliminated before he threw the game. It's more frustrating when he takes you down with him.
24 Jun 16 UTC Everyone has different goals. VI's opportunity to win the tournament was virtually nil towards the end, and he simply prioritized tournament position over the draw. Valis was pretty well positioned to take advantage of a Russian cock-up in the south for the entire game, but thankfully that never happened. If it had he was in good shape to try and solo, which was his only tournament winning option. If you're set on winning the tournament, things like draws may seem irrelevant. Giving a kicking to whoever made a mess of your game may well have had a greater appeal than the minor prizes.

Everyone is different. The game would be bloody tedious otherwise.
24 Jun 16 UTC Pretty much it. Valis is pretty well known for his all or nothing philosophy and I had to make a judgement call for prioritizing tournament over standalone and went with the tournament given the commitment it took to get this far. It's tough when you've got these conflicting motivators (tournament vs GR vs personal pride) and the wise player learns what drives each individual person and tries to integrate that into their goals. Oct managed to do a pretty decent job of that.

It's always a tough pill to witness a completely avoidable solo occur, but I can attest that the personality dynamic simple wasn't going to come together to create the cohesion that would have been necessary to get the job done in sufficient time. The French stab sealed the final chance.
24 Jun 16 UTC VI, your approach made sense because you got to secure 2nd place (still bummed that Oct went out of his way to give you 2nd rather than giving us a tie but I didn't do anything to campaign for that). Tournament play is weird and I'm not sure if I like it but it makes sense to play in the context that the game was created.

Valis never makes sense.
24 Jun 16 UTC Oh yeah... If I'd held on to Bulgaria you'd have tied for second. That would have been a fun option :p.

It's amazing what you don't notice when you're focused on the solo...
24 Jun 16 UTC Funny. The thought didn't even cross my mind to consider tournament position-jockeying. Partly because I was fucked from the beginning ...
... But also that I personally feel like a solo is an embarrassment for the survivors - regardless of impact on tournament position. But I know others do not feel the same.
24 Jun 16 UTC I genuinely don't know how I feel about it. In stand alone games I agree completely. In tournaments winning the tournament has to trump a solo, but how the other positions should rank compared to game results I don't know. I am a pretty awful tournament player, and I've only ever been able to think in terms of individual games, so I guess in VI's position I would have played for the draw.
24 Jun 16 UTC In a solo everybody else loses. Grief a draw is not win either. You just don't lose as badly. Coming second is coming nowhere at all. I know people get something out of a survive. But I truly believe they are just deluding themselves.

In any walk of life you would be considered a loser if someone else soloed, why not in Dip. Imagine standing in the congregation as the your women you thought of as your soulmate says you are a good friend and marries someone else. Would you be pleased to say 'Yeah, great. I came second'? You watch your rival get the promotion and your manager consoles you with, 'You did a great job, you can still work here'. Do you feel content with that?

When does coming second ever equal anything other than defeat except in the mind of some Diplomacy players?
24 Jun 16 UTC I feel it's worth noting that he who came second has a solo percentage nearly double my own, and has a remarkably low number of survives to his name. It would be a brave man who chose to question VI's will to win.

I think second in a tournament carries more weight than second in a game. I'm vaguely aware that you get trophies for such things in the world of face to face tournaments, although I get the district impression that face to facers give themselves trophies for turning up :p. But the day that diplomacy players finally agree on what counts for what beneath a solo will be the day the game loses an important part of its soul.
24 Jun 16 UTC I don't think any player in this game disgraced themselves. All played with dedication and a strong level of communication, and were willing to listen to arguments. You can't ask for more than that, unless you want to be perpetually disappointed
25 Jun 16 UTC I wasn't questioning anybody's will to win. And I agree the tournament aspect is different from the game. I was arguing my point that the game can only have a single winner and no runner ups.
25 Jun 16 UTC Second place tournament standing and a game loss, stalemate four-way draw and a 4th place tournament standing? Hard for a competitive type to not feel disappointed with either result, but as I said stopping the solo wasn't on the table with the lack of cohesion following the French stab in 1910 so simply was the best lemonade to be made from the lemons provided.

Anybody who's had any placement in the top seven of a 56 person tournament shouldn't feel too badly of how well they've done though, so good job to all of us.
25 Jun 16 UTC Who we missing still, Valis and PW?
25 Jun 16 UTC I think Valis is up to his neck in World Cup action. I doubt we'll see anything until that's over. Is wiggins there too?
26 Jun 16 UTC Don't believe that his scene, but maybe.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Russia
Octavious (1720 D)
Won. Bet: 5 D, won: 35 D
18 supply-centers, 17 units
Italy
VillageIdiot (6818 D)
Survived. Bet: 5 D
9 supply-centers, 6 units
England
Valis2501 (2781 D (G))
Survived. Bet: 5 D
6 supply-centers, 7 units
France
peterwiggin (15274 D Mod (S))
Survived. Bet: 5 D
1 supply-centers, 3 units
Germany
mscott (384 D (G))
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Austria
Yonni (191 D (S))
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Turkey
TooCoolSunday (344 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
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