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Finished: 06 PM Fri 17 Jul 15 UTC
Secret draws
1 day, 1 hours /phase
Pot: 35 D - Spring, 1922, Finished
Classic, Public messaging only, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Hidden draw votes
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: @France - that's fine - Gas or Bre this turn please
@England - thanks
@Russia - also thanks
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Looks like Russia and England are tied now
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: So, once again, who is holding us all up? We may as well all be like Turkey and do support holds all day if we really are looking to draw.
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: France, could you order Rom->Nap, TyS->Nap, GoL->TyS? Thanks

Germany, I still think that Russian army in Boh ought to be removed.
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Oi Russia, want to disband Boh once your losses from warsaw are processed?
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: most likely, I just want to be sure all of us are on the same page that Trieste should remain in my possession for the sake of even power.
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: England, you are putting a lot of faith in France not stabbing you.
Similarly, Germany, I hope you protect Munich.
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Russia, you can afford to lose one or more additinal centres; as could France and I; we don't really need our Italian centres strictly speaking, nor do you need your Austrian centres, nor an army in Boh; "the sake of even power" would imply everyone ought to control approximately 34/5~7 centres, which seems quite unnecessary.
If we are to have a five-way draw, then why not vote for a draw immediately? Swapping centres seems to be a waste of time.

Russia, somehow I trust Germany and France more than I trust you. France has exposed herself to me repeatedly in the past, and I didn't stab; likewise I've been exposing myself to France as well, and France has not stabbed me, even though she's had ample opportunities to stab me; I don't see why France would stab me or Germany right now. I'm fairly confident we'll make it into a draw, our alliance seems stable enough.
You, Russia, on the other hand have repeatedly stabbed your allies, and you've kept armies adjacent to Mun uninterruptedly since 1910; more importantly, you refused to accept a draw in the past. Now you seem to be trying to disrupt our stable alliance again. I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve.
14 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: England, here's an idea, listen to REASON! I moved out of Warsaw - willingly. I even supported Germany in because I wish to show once and for all my draw vote is in. Don't act like you have a squeaky clean slate of never having stabbed anyone. You stabbed myself, France, and Germany all at some point. I only stabbed Turkey, anyone else was in retaliation. As for Balance, after this fall, I'll have 9, you'll have 9, France will have 8. That is balance of us main powers here and I spoke before why it is in neither your's or France's interest to let the other have Trieste.

So how many more times do I need to say my draw vote has been in before you start thinking logically?
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Out of curiosity, what do you plan to do with F NAO @England ?
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: I think it is England that isn't drawing. That is why I let Russia go against him.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: In the Med. I would recommend probably that we go against England, and with Russias approval maybe, I file in at his back and open SC's, that way, there is an insurance policy for France and Germany to ease their worries about a Russian stab.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: England, let's just hold the fort this year
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: England the suggested is what I originally had set.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: not sure exactly what you mean Turkey, but feel free to push forward into Ion and beyond.

The non-drawer is going to get board of nothing going on soon enough.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Russia, we're the only two with a build - I assume you're disbanding A Boh?
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Also starting Friday I'll need a really long (e.g. one month) pause, or a replacement, or a draw. I'd appreciate it if pause votes could go up so I can pause when needed. I'd advise we try to get a replacement though
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Could somebody bump the replacement thread?
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: correct.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: What I'm saying is, pause vote in by the way. Is that we should all attack England, and if Germany, or replacement Germany, and France have any worries about you stabbing them if we would all do that, then I can put my fleets behind you, so that they have insurance. If you attack them I'll attack you, freeing you all up to go to war against England.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: "We should all attack England"

Erm

Idea - BAL - SWE, A KIE - DEN, NAO is disbanded

To some degree freaks people out less over England apparently being so large, makes me more stab-proof so nobody can sink their teeth into my flesh

Thoughts?
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: I don't think "everyone attack England" is the best idea unless you're 100% sure England is withholding the draw, which I'm not
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: well it's either England or France. I can't particularly do anything but guard and help Turkey into the med, from there Turkey bites England first before getting to France.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: we shall see, I personally don't think England will let you have Denmark because I'm confident he is the hold out. if he does though, then we can turn to France. Maybe you can ask him for Belgium.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: In response to Russia's earlier stabbing accusations, I only moved against France after France violated our earlier dmz agreement by moving into the Channel (Autumn 1902). When France agreed to move away from me, to enter the Mediterranean instead, I stopped fighting France, as promised, even though I could have had two French centres unopposed by stabbing France, which I didn't do (Autumn 1904). Afterwards I pulled back, and France and I have not stabbed nor fought each other ever since, even though we've exposed ourselves repeatedly to each other, allowing quite a few stabbing opportunities. France has been a reliable ally to me, I to France. I don't expect this to change.
Feel free to check if you don't believe me. The archives are publicly available to anyone interested.

Likewise, I only moved against Germany after Germany suddenly ordered an unexplained move, unasked for (Den S Swe->Ska; Autumn 1904). I simply can't trust unpredictable neighbours, and realized that German fleet was a threat, which prevented me to dmz the area North of Germany. The purpose of my attack on Germany was to eliminate that German fleet, to enable several of my units to move elsewhere afterwards. Germany and I swapped Bel and Den. Neither of us did make any serious attempts to eliminate the other. When the German fleet was finally destroyed (Spring 1908), I stopped attacking Germany, as promised, and continued in alliance with Germany afterwards.
Our agreement is straightforward. Germany publicly stated she would not (re)build any fleet(s), only armies; we promised not to attack each other any more; I gave up my claim on Bel, Germany gave up her claim on Den. As all of you can easily verify, I lived up to my part of the agreement, Germany to hers. This agreement is still valid. I trust Germany, and I don't expect Germany will violate it.

Furthermore, Germany, France, and I agreed to an alliance to prevent a Russian solo-victory, to remove the Russian threat to Mun, and to create a stable stalemate line.
Pie-Tyr-Ven-Apu-Ion is a stable stalemate line. We have enough units avaiable to hold it indefinitely.
If France is willing to return Bel to Germany, then I won't be opposed to that. Nor do I object to France moving into Tri, or I into Adr.
Nevertheless, I don't see how swapping a few areas would change anything.
Perhaps we should simply hold our positions until everyone has truely voted for a draw. Or do you all want this game to turn into something like gameID=93086 ?
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: And if you look to your left, you will see our newest exhibit, England, the dancing bear. He specializes in avoiding questions and other lines of reason. Don't stare too long, he's very self conscious.
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: @England - so is that a yes or a no or a "wait, Germany asked me a question?"?
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: @Russia - I thought you were the bear
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: What other notable dancing circus animals are there? that was the point of the joke...
15 Jul 15 UTC Autumn, 1921: Seals? Lions?
16 Jul 15 UTC That's a lot of dancing. I will reiterate that I would appreciate a draw as we are.
16 Jul 15 UTC I have cast mY pause also.
16 Jul 15 UTC Russia, I request you leave Bulgaria. You don't need to worry, so please don't make me.
16 Jul 15 UTC Yes, Russia clearly is a large bear:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_around_1900.jpg

France, could you order TyS->Ion this turn?
Germany, I'm opposed to Kiel->Den. I don't see how such a move would bring us closer to a draw. Moving into Boh might be helpful.
Russia, I appreciate it you've finally removed Boh.
Turkey, I don't think it's unreasonable if Russia would return Bul and Gre to you.
16 Jul 15 UTC It makes you less of a threat as you disband an unneeded unit (unless that's for French defense, in which case it's terribly out of position), it also makes me more stab-proof towards you and France
16 Jul 15 UTC Turkey, don't worry, I am moving to protect Greece. I do hope to see your fleets move towards Ionian.

England, I'm opposed to Turkey taking Bulgaria and Greece, I don't see how such a move would bring us closer to a draw.

Germany, convinced yet that England is holding us up? I will make sure warsaw is protected. Make sure you defend Berlin, and go for denmark!
Maybe even consider disbanding Prussia to ease his pressure. After all, if we are drawing, he doesn't need armies around your centers.
16 Jul 15 UTC This phase will be the last for a month unless replacement is found, btw
16 Jul 15 UTC I still encourage we draw it up - I'd encourage we draw it up even if there wasn't going to be such a long pause/replacement
16 Jul 15 UTC Germany, I could have stabbed you already if I had wanted to. Likewise, France could have stabbed you quite effectively. Neither of us stabbed you. In fact, we continued in alliance with you, keeping you alive and active. Russia repeatedly exerted pressure on France and me to eliminate you. We refused.
This game could easily have been reduced to a three-way EFR draw. This didn't happen, because we're not interested in a smaller draw. Both France and I have stated we prefer a draw which includes you, and Turkey.

The only one who repeatedly tried to get a smaller draw, is Russia. Russia has pushed France and me to elimate you, Germany, which didn't happen. Russia has tried to convince France and me to stab each other, which didn't happen. Russia has suggested an "all-on-Turkey", which didn't happen either. Nor do I expect an "all-on-England" or an "all-on-France" to work anywhere in the forseeable future.

The main reason why I don't fully trust Russia, is because Russia has repeatedly broken her word. Here's just another example, from last year:
"(To: Global, from Russia) - Spring, 1921: I hope we can keep Black, Armenia, and Bulgaria to a DMZ from here forward as we deal with England?"
And what did Russia do afterwards? Indeed, Russia violated the dmz she suggested herself by moving into Bul. Not exactly trustworthy, is it?
16 Jul 15 UTC To all, don't you agree it is significantly to draw this game with the current German player, who's been here with us since the beginning, than it is to replace Germany with an entirely new player? Could you please check whether you're really voting for a draw, and could the hold-out (I guess Russia), reconsider his or her decision?

I prefer a draw. As I've stated earlier, I don't see how anybody could gain a solo-victory in this game. Continuing this game is basically a waste of time.
If somehow this game is not drawn, the default option is simply to support hold our current positions. Russia can't break through the stable stalemate line running from StP to Ion, at least not as long as G, F, and I refuse to stab each other, which I don't believe will change.
Alternatively, F and I could help T and G to grow at R's expense. Slow progress, and it would result almost certainly in just a draw.
Let's draw now.
16 Jul 15 UTC You know what. Guys. I'm going for the solo. My draw votes out.
16 Jul 15 UTC After I called the DMZ, Turkey made a joke(?) comment about being the one to withhold the draw as it's funny to watch us fight. So I moved reactionary. Which I've shown before I will do if I feel threatened. What can one army do against 3 fleets?

If I was holding out, I would still be trying to convince others to turn, but I'm not. I want this game drawn now and it'd be really annoying if we did have to postpone this game longer than needed.
16 Jul 15 UTC I think Turkey might win this...
Sorry I haven't completely read all the most recent press. I am still seeing a draw and am not interested in stabbing Germany or France
16 Jul 15 UTC Omg, who was holding out then?
16 Jul 15 UTC About damn time.
16 Jul 15 UTC Well, Us and England are the only ones listed online and I *know* I had my vote in for a while. not that england could be convinced. My vote is on england holding out.
16 Jul 15 UTC GG WP
17 Jul 15 UTC Drawn, finally!
Thank you all for drawing, I really appreciate it!
17 Jul 15 UTC This was the first public "hidden draw votes" game.
With the exception of any earlier live game, this was also my first public press only game here. I think limited press is quite interesting, but also more difficult than full press, or no press. Honestly, I don't see how I could possibly have won a solo-victory here. Maybe if I had stabbed Germany in 1902, which did not seem a good idea. I've probably been too passive, limiting myself unnecessarily.
I probably need more practice in limited press. For instance, I don't understand how to convince players to stab others, without alarming the victims. Communicating moves is also problematic; if I did not state some clear moves, France often ordered something ineffective; if I publicly stated what to do, then Russia could easily counter those moves, rendering them ineffective as well. I don't like to lie in public. I guess I'm simply too honest, and too inexperienced.
Apparently it is possible to get away with telling lies, as exemplified by Russia, although it did not work for Austria. Speaking of which, Austria, could you please explain your strategy, now this game is finished? I still don't understand why you explictly promised to retreat into Lvn, and decided to disband War instead.
17 Jul 15 UTC Good game guys. Kinda.

Interesting game guys.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

England
Nescio (1069 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
9 supply-centers, 9 units
Russia
TheReinvented (1360 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
9 supply-centers, 9 units
France
changer (108 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
8 supply-centers, 8 units
Germany
DeathLlama8 (524 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
5 supply-centers, 5 units
Turkey
Holen (222 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 7 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
Italy
Arminius (1514 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Austria
ssorenn (0 D X)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
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