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Finished: 04 AM Fri 13 Mar 15 UTC
Private The Art of War -2
1 day, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 350 D - Spring, 1920, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: Not my complaint about Turkey, any respectable player and diplomat could have coordinated a fool-proof situation. Before falling off the GR uclabb was listed as #5 on the list so he's certainly got the capacity, he's just being unnecessarily difficult about pulling it together.

Maybe now that it's all out in the open and i'm a much hated player who no longer has credibility with anybody he'll finally come out of the shadows. It's ok Turkey, Italy's not going to believe anything i tell him anyways.
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: France is being a greedy self centered ass. There is no reason for this. It's apparent that the Turk is not moving because he called the mods. Whatever the original banter was about reducing the draw is now over.VI is just mad that, VI isnt getting his way, so he throwing a temper tantrum
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: Holy shit dude. I'm basically explaining how to coordinate my own elimination by saying this, but someone has to say it. It is ABUNDANTLY obvious that if you were serious about eliminating me (and not just trying to bullshit your way into getting me to throw you the solo), you would need to pull back all of your fleets such that Turkey can get Tunis and have no fear whatsoever of you being able to capitalize on my promise to throw you the game. But you're not doing that. You're making a meaningless withdrawal from Tyrrhenian Sea that you renege on immediately. You're making it completely impossible for Turkey to stab me without giving you the game.
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: Stop wasting time. If you're going to make meaningful moves to make my elimination feasible, just do it. Or, hit draw. Enough is enough.
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: and so the dilemma persists
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: at this point there is no reason to eliminate Italy
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: I won't get into why that would be a bad approach without mutual agreement, not worth the can of worms debate that would just irritate everybody in the long run. All I'll say is there's been stalling for the mod intervention for strategic leverage, things are on-going, and grumbling and complaining is not going to get you a draw. Negotiate, fight, or wait it out - those are you choices.
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1918: I'm happy to post my entire post history with France if italy would like. I have at no time made an agreement with France to knock out italy, and especially nothing having to do with Munich. That makes no sense and is an obvious lie. What I have said is exactly what italy said- France knows how to make it so that I can safely take out Italy. If that's what he wanted, that's what he would do. It's that simple. All this dicking around is exactly that, dicking around, and as I have told France, I am no longer at all interested in taking out Italy. I'm simply not interested in rewarding such behavior, even when it's not strictly in my interest. This has been obscene and France can go fuck himself.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: Turkey: I wouldn't take issue in the slightest even if you were jockeying for my elimination. That's fine. Some people believe in reducing the draw as much as possible, others see all things other than a win as equally bad, and there's nothing wrong, in my view, from pursuing your own ideal endgame. I've got no quarrel with you either way, so don't trouble yourself with posting your conversation with France.

And I don't mean to grumble or complain, France. Didn't mean to come off that way. It'skind of bullshit that you would accuse me of speaking in the hopes of getting myself into the draw, however. I literally went over exactly what I think you should do if you actually want to eliminate me. That's not a play to save myself. That's a testament to my utter bafflement that you can't just make this happen.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: You're seriously underestimating the intelligence of Turkey if you think you're going to pull off a solo at this point by getting him to stab me while you're clearly positioned to win given the slightest opening in the stalemate line.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: Accused you of no such thing, not specifically directed at you anyways, but i am weary of being repeated asked to vote for a draw that i've been very clear i won't do. If all i have left is three more rounds to punch a wall and hope a weak spot presents itself then so be it but i'm not going to throw away my progress based on a "c'mon just do it" campaign.

And again as well, the diplomatic solution has always been there it's just been an excessively painful process with the communication between me and uclabb just due to personality differences and what i see as a basic apathy from him towards the game these days. Still, I'm leaving that door open until it gets closed for me as well.

So again i'll request you just respect my well earned right to fight to the end and just ride it out. If anybody is really that tired of this game, you are more then welcome to cease placing orders.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: You're not fighting to the end. You are hoping for a misorder. That's in extremely poor taste.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: Not my key strategy by a long shot, i'm waiting for you to pull your head out of your rear and do this properly. How did you ever climb as high as you did with this half-assed play energy?

I never should have progressed anywhere near as far as i did nor should i have been able to stay here and there is no reason this game should this be ending at a four-way draw if not for you regulating to give this game it's proper attention. You've phone it in all game and now you're auto-piloting the ending and in my eyes THAT'S the extremely poor taste. Bunch of strong and competitive players like Charlie, Sh@dow, and Stack get knocked out fighting to the bitter end and you doing the bare minimum to do enough just to force a draw and still getting rewarded frankly drives me a little nutty. I get why the other guys are on edge, it's been a tense filled game for them and they want the draw, but you sitting in that cushy position while still half-assing it have no justification to be casting judgement. Ssorenn may have become a bit of a classless jerk under the pressure of it all but at least i can credit him for giving it a proper fight through the game, you're just being ridiculously lazy. I refuse to believe you don't have the proper skills to give this game the ending it's set up to have given the positioning of everybody, the only thing that's lacking is a proper "give a shit" attitude.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: Encouraging us to cease to place orders if we grow weary of this game can only accurately be interpreted as Turkey interpreted it. Truth be told, worse than hoping for a misorder, you're actually trying to bully us into giving up. If Turkey says that he wants to draw, and you know that his cooperation is necessary in order to achieve my elimination, you have absolutely no justification for continuing the game aside from a hope either to suck away our will to keep playing, or, as Turkey noted, a hope for a misorder. You could be hoping, too, that Turkey will change his mind, but if he's saying that he won't, and he hasn't for as many turns as it has been, you should really just take his word for it.

I'm speaking exactly as I imagine I would were I a third party viewing this game from apart. My wish to participate in the draw has nothing, I'm all but certain, to do with me deeming your continuation of this game in decidedly poor taste.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: France, the only classless person here is you. Everyone here may determine there own level of input. Its a Fucking game. The poor taste, is all on your part. It quite easy to be an asshole to someone who is being a moron. This jumping through hoops, to eliminate one person is asinine at best. Do you get your jollies from this? Is this fulfilling a void, from some other aspect of your life? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING?
If you need the GR, take mine, take my points, i dont care. I think we all had more respect for you before all this , while i have not brought this up with anyone else, my assumption is that your level of respect here is now waning.
What gives you the right to tell anyone here, how much of their time they should allocate to this? Now were in a situation that people are allocating more time to this banter than this game deserves. Why, because of your incestuous desire to be a bully.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: You know that comment was a tounge-in-cheek joke, right?
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: I probably should have discerned that. Oh well. Such is Diplomacy.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: Let me just say this for those if you quick to brand me a bully and bad sport to help frame this from my perspective. I know it won't change any opinions, but still needs to be said.

This was a VERY hard fought game from my end. I started spring 01 with attacks from Italy, Germany, and England all looking to make me first one out. I fought back against incredible odds and went on to be instrumental in the elimination of some highly reputable players and make my way to 17 against a 3 vs 1 situation with a little assistance along the way from people I'd previously betrayed. No small accomplishment.

So to get boned at the end out of a respectable ending out of pure laziness of uclabb is an incredibly hard pill to swallow. He spent half the game in his little turkey shell and only managed to eliminate one player when he finally two other countries finally decided they wanted to attack him too. He literally did nothing noteworthy.

A fourway draw for a game like this just seems unbelievably wrong and lame and I can't endorse it. Carry on with the mudslinging if you must, but that's the world through my eyes and that's why I'm not quick to just accept uclabb's lazy game play as an acceptable conclusion to this. I realize I'll get forced to soon enough and I'll be fine when that happens, just a game and all that, but I'm competitive while im in it and offer no apologies for that. That's why I'm here and why I play.
09 Mar 15 UTC Spring, 1919: I don't think anyone here doesn't believe that you have the right to get what you possibly wanted out of this. Also no one will stroke your ego either, but when negotiations break down and its obvious your not getting the three way, that's when people get upset. We have been there for 2 years now....whatever you think of uclabb or me , you are entitled to, but its just as much his game as it is yours. What he decides to allocate to this game is up to him whether you like it or not. You have the choice for future games to play with him or anyone else or not, but this game has run its course.
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1919: Whether I had 100 hours a week to devote to this game or th 1 or 2 I've actually had, I would have played it exactly the same. Effort level is not at issue. France has refused to make any good faith move *at all* to make it even reasonable to consider eliminating italy (and he's lucky we got austria and Germany either, he definitely didn't help with that). To claim anything else is just insane. You know that what I am saying is true when even italy (who would have been eliminated had you been slightly less arrogant and impossible) agrees
09 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1919: And you couldn't have put it in the same words italy had? How hard was that, what was the gain to be had with your vague half answers? Like hell effort isn't an issue.
10 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1919: Did Italy say anything you didn't know? Did you think I didn't know anything italy said? No? Of course not
10 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1919: you two get a fucking room---what's up with the "hate" bromance
10 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1919: When you don't say it and base everything of vague insinuations alone you come across like you're either working a con, wasting time, or simply just being a dick for the sake of being one. In this case I suspect a bit of all three again out of laziness to work out a proper angle. What did you have to gain by approaching things the way you did?
10 Mar 15 UTC Autumn, 1919: WORRRRRRLLLLLLLLLLLLLLD STAR~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!!!!!!!'!!!!
10 Mar 15 UTC BORING
10 Mar 15 UTC Seems like as good a time as any to call this one. Ends with a whimper. Congrats italy on weathering the storm!
10 Mar 15 UTC This was a GG, till the last 4 years. Thx for FINALLY calling it VI
10 Mar 15 UTC Turkey, you were lazy pansy in the game and kinda a twat at the start but still enjoyed some of our conversations when we weren't in the trenches so guess I still kinda like ya. Ssorenn, really unimpressed with what you turned into later in the game - seriously, wtf?. Huge respect for mke and stack who really put on a hell of a fight and were awesome competitors. Sha@dow - we never really competed in this one but appreciate all your considerable help behind the scenes. THN - super nice guy. I think with a little distance I'll look back at this game with more positive memories then bad ones.
10 Mar 15 UTC Not that I really give a shit what you think VI, but I was just glad to be in my position, I got screwed 3 times, and I even tried to screw the one that let me into the draw. Whatever !! Your just pissed I would tell uclabb to get rid of the Italian. I told you it wasn't up to me.
11 Mar 15 UTC Haha, you guys definitely should've cut me out of the draw, lol. Good game!
11 Mar 15 UTC And thanks, France, for not drawing this out.
11 Mar 15 UTC This game should have been a two way draw if you weren't so goddamn stubborn VI. Ah well
11 Mar 15 UTC You're killing me here uclabb...
11 Mar 15 UTC I really truly believe that 10 out of 10 good diplomacy players who objectively looked at the game from outside of it would agree with me. I honestly don't even see your side of the argument.
11 Mar 15 UTC That's how I knew there was to be no 2 way. Love it
11 Mar 15 UTC I don't understand why you would refuse to verbalize an agreement when it was clear you wanted to make one?
11 Mar 15 UTC It was just bizarre the way you approached it, there's no way you could reasonably expect somebody to just know you wanted to make a two-way deal and start blindly moving in a way to make that happen. I had no clue what you were trying to get at with your super vague messages. Even gunboat players at least try to communicate through some action to indicate their intentions but you didn't even do that. I'm seriously dying to know, what were you concerned would happen if you just were direct and clear in this situation?
11 Mar 15 UTC Eh, but come on. You claimed it wouldn't have been a good idea to back off of me without a mutual agreement with Turkey happening first. Why? All you had to do was make eliminating me without giving you the game feasible. That, at least, required no input from Turkey. It just seemed like you were trying, badly, to get me to pre-eptively throw the game, and you failed.
11 Mar 15 UTC Emptively*
11 Mar 15 UTC I agree with YHN. Conceding Tunis was just super obvious.

And good game, y'all, I'm just somewhat sad to say from the grave.
11 Mar 15 UTC Don't forget that there'd been heavy head-butting between us ever since year one so the idea of dancing for him with minimal confidence wasn't overly appealing. I couldn't reason why he wouldn't be willing to discuss unless it was for the purpose of going too far in negotiating against myself far enough to make some mistake he could jump on. Started to feel like i had to do the heavy lifting of orchestrating an opening against myself for the sake of an apathetic player who was sleep walking through the game and couldn't be bothered doing it for himself. Under those conditions it made no sense to forfeit any other hail mary angles i may wish to try since they seemed at least better odds then relying on uclabb.

I have no benefit in buttering up my intentions now that the game is over, had I received any spark of reassurance in this I would have wholeheartedly worked out a deal that could have given him Italy with a full sense of security (and then try to negotiate something more after that) but it was just too unbelievably flimsy and a bit silly. Hearing now he wanted a deal but wouldn't talk about it is kinda frustrating to hear.

Anyways, if Turkey wants to explain his thought process i'd love to hear it otherwise i think we can all move on with our lives now.
11 Mar 15 UTC I'd be happy to fold this game out into an EOG thread- i would write one, and I'm sure others would as well.

I'm not sure exactly what you want me to say VI- Italy and Germany's comments reflect/ support my belief that 10 out of 10 good diplomacy players outside the game would agree that you were the one being unreasonable here. There was no agreement to be made- you could pull back without forfeiting any of your own security, so if you wanted Italy eliminated, you should have. I gave you plenty of indications over the game that I would happily knock Italy out- I aggressively took out Austria and Germany despite both attempts increasing your solo chances. I talked to you throughout the game how frustrated I was that Italy was so clearly playing for the draw and that that was a strategy that I don't think should be rewarded. I even sent you a link to a game in which after my solo attempt was stopped I pulled back to try to get my opponents to eliminate a small power and we laughed about it. The only reason for you to want explicit confirmation from me that I would eliminate Italy is so that you could send that to Italy and try to get him to throw you the game. It really is that simple.

You never made a single move the entire game at all concerned with decreasing the draw. That's fine, you were trying to solo. But it's completely your fault that the draw was large. The only way to understand your last few moves if that you got the taste of a possible solo and you weren't willing to throw that away (even though it was gone) and pull back and decrease the draw.
11 Mar 15 UTC I'm interested in EOGs, too, if anyone's up for getting the ball rolling.
11 Mar 15 UTC Sounds like you're volunteering. ;)
11 Mar 15 UTC My EOG will be a rather inglorious start to the thread but sure, if no one else steps up, I'll do one up after I get home from work this evening.
11 Mar 15 UTC I would happily write an EOG. I think Austria mentioned he would write one as well
11 Mar 15 UTC Ah you made it all the way through before the boring stalematey stuff anyways, so you'll have plenty to talk about. Help us get the EOG on a positive track before me and uclabb just start flinging poo at each other.
12 Mar 15 UTC I've started writing my EOG but, uh, long game and I'm long-winded... might not get the thread up til tomorrow. We'll see.
13 Mar 15 UTC http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=1237408#1237408

EOG is up in case anyone is checking here but not the forums.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

France
VillageIdiot (6818 D)
Drawn. Bet: 50 D, won: 88 D
17 supply-centers, 17 units
Turkey
uclabb (589 D)
Drawn. Bet: 50 D, won: 88 D
10 supply-centers, 10 units
Russia
ssorenn (0 D X)
Drawn. Bet: 50 D, won: 88 D
4 supply-centers, 4 units
Italy
Drawn. Bet: 50 D, won: 88 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
England
MKECharlie (1926 D (G))
Defeated. Bet: 50 D
Germany
Defeated. Bet: 50 D
Austria
Sh@dow (3512 D)
Defeated. Bet: 50 D
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